Powder Drop Problem

[Guest qstick]

I sat down at my loading desk tonight ready to load 4 or 500 rounds for a couple matches this weekend, but I cannot get a consistent drop from the powder measure. I am using a Dillon 550 and VVn320.

I have only loaded about 1000-1500 rounds, so I am still fairly new to reloading, but all my other loads have worked flawlessly.

There are 2 new variables...the first is this is my first time using once-fired brass. One batch is from Starch, and the other is from a very reliable local shooter, and the brass was only used in a STI. The other new variable is the EGW/Lee die. Using this die, I have noticed that it takes an increased pull of the handle when resizing, and the case seems to want to get "stuck" on the powder die when the ram is returning to the downward position. I am using one shot lube.

i was shooting for 4.8 grains. Previously I had been using 4.7, and i was getting that everytime from the powder drop. I adjusted the screw in the powder bar until I was getting 4.8 consistently, but could not duplicate the load with brass that hadn;t been through the powder die at least once. If I took a pc. of brass and ran it through the resizing die, then the powder die, I was getting a larger charge than if I took the same pc. of brass and continually kept using it to check the powder charge. I hope that made sense to someone???

The charge would vary from 4.7 up to 5.0, and it was usually the highest when checking with a pc. of brass that was being run through the press for the first time, as described above.

Any ideas as to what the problem might be? Tomorrow is my last night to try and get this done, so any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Zach

[eric nielsen]

Weird.

That sort of thing usually doesn't happen with Dillon powder measures. The only thing that would make it do that would be static on the powder and measure (the clear plastic body) or gunk/lube inside the slider bar.

I'd take it apart and see. The only safe lube for measures is dry mica powder. I wouldn't even do that much. Just clean and dry. Use brake cleaner.

If you use a non-Dillon measure, couldn't say. I do know that the Hornady Pro-jector measure has a piston-type part that frequently slips and increases your charge - bad news.

dvc - eric - a28026

[JT Johnson]

I would double check to be sure the powder measure is fully traveling back to the starting place on the primer-seating-upstroke. I'd first check with a empty case and then double check with cases in each station.

I've thrown a spring on my "new style" powder measure so the powder measure snaps back into place on the downstroke. I think it has helped, but I still can get some occasional low/high throws (+-.2 grain). Standard deviation though is .1 though on 20 size sample.

I've sometimes noticed the same thing you mentioned about getting higher charges when a piece is sized then belled/powder dropped than if you run the same piece through over and over. This seems to disappear after running the first case through. Maybe since you run the first piece through the powder has a chance to packed in since it isn't being dropped in station 2? I've noticed a smooth stroke sure helps in getting consistant powder drops.

I would think a charge varying from 4.7 to 5.0 isn't that bad since your powder measure is only accurate to +-.1 grain and your scale(at least mine is) is only accurate to +-.1 grain. So if you set your measure to throw 4.8 it could throw a 4.9 and it is possible your scale could read 4.8,4.9, or 5.0. I didn't do so hot in high school chemistry so I have no idea if the above is true though!

Josh

[kevin c]

The other new variable is the EGW/Lee die.  Using this die, I have noticed that it takes an increased pull of the handle when resizing, and the case seems to want to get "stuck" on the powder die when the ram is returning to the downward position.

...

If I took a pc. of brass and ran it through the resizing die, then the powder die, I was getting a larger charge than if I took the same pc. of brass and continually kept using it to check the powder charge.

Any vibration will cause settling of the charge in the powder bar, allowing more to settle in. If the same amount of vibration isn't present the next time you cycle the press, you won't get the same amount of settling and the charge thrown will be different.

The first time you flare an undersized case run through your EGW die, I'd bet the internal diameter of the case mouth is less than what you had with your old die. If you flare aggressively, or if the cases are longer than what you had loaded with that setting previously, you may be binding on the case mouth. As the ram pulls the case down, it may be "snapping off" the powder die, causing a bit of vibration. It could be enough to make the charge vary. The next time you use the same case to check a dropped charge, the case is already flared and won't bind on the powder die nearly as much.

I speak from experience, here, not speculation. If I bump my powder measure bar reaching for a case, the next charge dropped will be 0.1 to 0.2 gr heavier, using a powder like Viht, and, interestingly enough, the following charge will be correspondingly lighter.

Try backing off on the amount of flare on the powder die station. Alternatively, align your cases mouth up and get some One Shot into the mouths. This will smooth the press action at that station a lot. Other options are to go back to your old die until you have a chance to tweak your press, to try buffing or polishing your powder die where the flaring occurs (if a bit rough, you can get some brass buildup there), or to go with another batch of cases. (BTW, some new cases have the same problem - being unfired, they don't have a coat of lubricating soot inside the case mouth, some of them have burrs at the case mouth which can bind on the die, and some are coated to keep off tarnish, but which again can cause binding.)

Hope this helps.

[Guest qstick]

Thanks for all the great advice. I am going to try and run home for lunch and try a few things out.

Regarding the flaring.....I don;t think I am flaring too much, but am not really sure. The base of the bullet is .400 and using calipers, the flaring seems to be between .003 and .004 . Does this seem correct, or should I be smaller. The bullet does seat rather easily into the casemouth, going in approximately .040" deep into the case.

It is definately impossible to get a smooth stroke, between the added resistance of the EGW die and the substantial sticking to the flaring die, there is a very noticeable snag in the stoke. I didn;t realize that this would have an effect on the powder drop, because i thought that the drop had already occured by the time this was happening. I really would like to keep the EGW die in use, since I am now using once-fired brass. I might just have to skip a match or two until I get this worked out.

Thanks again for all the great ideas,

Zach

[kevin c]

You want the flare to be enough to hold the bullet upright without tipping, but not much more.

You are right that sticking on the powder die will effect the next case loaded (the next charge from the powder bar) but if you have to really crank on the lever to size the case in the first place, in the station before the powder drop, that will effect that particular charge which will go into the case being sized.

More to the point, if you are like most people, you probably adjust your powder drop by throwing multiple charges into the same case in the flaring/powder charging station, with the sizing station empty. Your throw is probably very smooth and consistent, because you aren't sizing or flaring anything. When you actually go into production mode, though, your throw will be very different with the effort to size/flare the cases. The greater the effort, the greater the variability in vibration and the greater the chance to throw off the charge thrown.

Quickest fix, short of replacing the die - lots of One Shot - on and especially in the mouths of the cases.

If your brass isn't from a Glock, or from somebody's over reamed chamber, most dies will get the case pretty close to factory spec, except for the very base of the case near the extractor rim (this last bit is what the EGW and Lee U/factory crimp dies are good for). Load some rounds and drop check them in the barrel of the gun you are loading for - If you can get them all to go w/o binding, then, at least for that gun, you may not need the undersizing die.

Another thought, though this means more money. If you really want to have fat free ammo, and you haven't been able to eliminate the problem in another way, use the Lee factory crimp die. This goes in after the flaring/powder/bullet seating stations, and would eliminate the undersize sticking problem by letting you go back to your original die, but still eliminate any "unsightly bulges" Remember though, it's functionality (feeding in the gun) that matters, not aesthetics, not caliper measurements.

Hope this helps, and I hope you get to shoot this weekend (I know I will - Infinity, here I come! )

[ErikW]

I think you'll find less snagging with more-used brass. The processed Scharch brass was always very snag-prone for me. As is new brass, as are certain groups of once-fired brass.

Do what Kevin said about lubing the case mouths, and search for posts here about improving the Dillon expander.

[Flexmoney]

Check all the screws on your powder measure...make sure nothing is loose.

[Carlos]

Zak - great advice from Kevin! Dillon's measure WILL throw a heavier charge if you interrupt the rythm of loading your 650. What do I mean by interupt? Think about the time between powder drops when you are loading fast - how long is that? Maybe 4, to 5 seconds? Now, imagine you take a charged case out & weigh it - how long does that take? Maybe 30 to 45 seconds? Longer? I have found the Dillon measure will throw a heavier charge (by .1 to .3 grns) just by stopping for as little as 30 seconds. Add in the vibrations of the loading cycle & the case feeder and your anomoly is explained. Try to be consistent in time w/ each & every pull of the handle. Try not to constantly stop the reloading cycle & if you do, throw an extra charge by hand & dump it back in the hopper before you begin again.

As for the flaring snag, as suggested, reduce the amount of flare a minimum and try the following: chuck the Dillon flare in a hand drill, press, or lathe (do not mar the surface of the flare w/ the chuck!) While spinning it, hold a cleaning patch or two saturated with Flitz metal polish on the flaring end. Polish it to a mirror finish. Dillon does a decent job of this at their factory but you may be able to improve the polish & smooth things up a little. Regards,

TY44934

EDIT: Zach (aka "Zak") sorry about that - also did not realize you have 550 & not 650 but the same ideas apply.

[kurtm]

I have noticed that the first case through the machine, be it 650, 550, S.D.B, or any progressive, will always be higher in charge weight than when you just set the powder drop to the charge weight. It is all the extra jiggling of the first two stages that "settle" the powder in the powder drop. I have found that if I jiggle the hell out of the powder drop funnel befor loading this also helps maintain consistency. Remember always weigh the first two or 3 through the machine and correct by hand those charges only befor playing with the powder bar setting. KURT

[dillon]

In order to ensure consistant powder bar travel, be sure that your pistol cases are being flared at least .010" larger than a sized, unflared case. What can happen is that a tightly sized case can have sufficient drag on the funnel to activate the powder bar fully, then the next case, with a slightly thinner case wall, does not. You can visually check this by pulling the handle down with a fired case in station one ( to make sure the upward toolhead pressure is constant) and a sized case in station two. Then, lift up on the handle just until you can see the case mouth on the powder funnel, without the case being pulled off the funnel. The case should be pressed visibly onto the flaring portion of the funnel. The powder drop variation you described is another symptom of incomplete powder bar travel. On the current design of the powder measure, be sure that there is enough tension on the spring on the return rod. When you push forward on the handle, the spring above the blue wing nut should be visibly compressed. This ensures that the powder bar is fully retracted to pick up the next powder charge.

[kevin c]

Ah, I've learned something new - Thanks, Dillon!. Argues against using mixed brass, doesn't it?

[Guest qstick]

An Update......

I took the powder measure assembly apart and cleaned everything, reassembled and made sure everything was tight, and still had the same result. So I reinstalled the Dillon sizing die and made it through 500 rounds trouble free

Just got through chamber-checking the rounds, and only had 11 that wouldn;t make it....and I suspect the EGW die would have solved the problem. The bulge was right at the base of the case. I guess I will have to look into getting the Lee factory crimp die (although I really hate setting the dies up).

Thanks again for everyone's help. I learned a ton about the press and reloading through this experience....Thanks again!!!

Zach