Does DA accuracy…

[badchad]

I just got a 617 (no trigger work) to practice with and was out shooting it this morning. Single action I was banging 10/10 on an 8” plate at 25 yards almost without effort. Double action I was hitting 6-9/10 on the same plate and I was concentrating hard. Weak and strong hand at closer distances the difference between single and double action accuracy were considerably more apparent. I normally shoot a Glock and am relatively new to revolvers. So I’m wondering, with a lot of practice does DA ever catch up with SA trigger pulls, or does DA only improve, but is never as good.

[Toolguy]

With a finely tuned centerfire I can easily shoot as well or better double action. You can't get a rimfire quite as light,

but it can be improved a lot from the way it comes new. With a good action and some practice D/A gets a lot easier.

[Waltermitty]

I think the short answer to the thread title is no.

This is why USPSA, and other games, were dominated by single action auto-loaders until other divisions were created for DA platforms.

That's not to say you can't become very good at DA accuracy, and you will have to to be competetive in any of the speed/accuracy games, but in all instances where accuracy is critical and time is not an object, SA will have more accuracy potential.

[adweisbe]

I get better accuracy and have shot better groups (25 yards) with a DA revolver then I have ever shot with an auto-loader. I believe this is because a revolver in DA does not have a distinct point where the shot breaks so I can't anticipate. I do need the to get the weight down to around 8 pound before I can hold the sights steady enough to be as consistent as I am with an auto. In the gallery position (or any one handed shooting) I always shoot SA better because I can't prevent the sights from moving with an 8 pound trigger.

In the end the weakest link is the nut behind the trigger. Whether a the action aids or hinders is going to vary. I find that I start to anticipate or transition early with an SA auto if I don't get regular DA practice.

[Spray_N_Prey]

Well we just hosted a "first shots" program and was donated a bunch of guns and ammo to use and S&W send us some 10 shot 22LR revolvers and I was shooting those everytime we didn't have people in line to shoot. It was a blast. I was shooting 8" plates at 25 yards and it was dead accurate. Then we decided to try DA and it didn't make a difference at all, I was very surprised, but damn I loved that little revolver (well not little, heavier than my 625)

[Storm52]

Well, if the thread title is Does DA accuracy with a revolver...ever catch up with SA accuracy? The answer is yes, with a caveat. Your DA trigger pull will never match SA. Accuracy however is objective with the right grips, trigger group smoothing and practice. Unless you plan on shooting bullseye, stick with DA when practicing. I know what my revolver will shoot when mounted to a Ransom Rest®. It is far more important to know what it will do once this old geezer grips it.

[Crabbys44]

YES it will. It takes more concentration, and a lot of dry practice, but it can be done. I'm not competing anymore, but at the top of my game, I could fire, and hit 6 rounds, double action from a stock Model 65, in 1.5 seconds. (I say stock, it did have Pachmeyer(?) grips and 50,000+ dry presses)

I don't know if you can dry practice w/ your .22, but double action is a small obstacle in the shooting game.

[Waltermitty]

Heh.

For those of you that see no difference in your own performance between SA and DA I won't dispute your stories, but that wasn't the question.

I'll direct your attention to the Match Results for the 2008 USPSA Nationals; specifically stage #19, which was a "Standards" course. There were 4 targets on fixed time with one round each, reload 1 round each, at 50, 35, and 15 yards if I remember correctly.

http://www.uspsa.org/

The winner of that stage and the match (in Revolver Division) by a wide margin was a fellow named Jerry, who may be the best DA Practical Revolver shooter that has ever lived and holds *all* of the World Revolver speed records.

Jerry won stage #19 "Quad Standards" with a score of 93 points. 24 points down was the distant 2nd place. I finished the stage in a three way tie for 9th (I suck) but that was my second best stage for the match (did I mention that I suck?) and I beat several other shooters that trashed me in the rest of the match.

Where would Jerry have finished in Limited (single action auto) with that score? How about 8th? Go check and see, I'll wait...

So all of you that think you could have finished in the Top 3, or Top 5, shooting DA need to get yourselves out to the range and get your GM card right quick, cause we need more torch bearers for the Revolver Division.

Yes, that's a challenge to any and all takers. If you can run your DA revolver with the average (C class) Limited shooter on 6 round neutral courses, you could be Pro by this time next year.

See you at the range!

[Ron Ankeny]

Hmmm...my accuracy was better double action than with single action. Come to think of it, I don't recall anyone cocking a revolver to shoot the 100 dollar bill side match in the now defunct National Shooter's League. Another thought comes to mind, how many PPC Championships were won with guys shooting DA at the 50 yard line? How come so many had their revolvers set up double action only?

If you can run your DA revolver with the average (C class) Limited shooter on 6 round neutral courses, you could be Pro by this time next year.

I would beg to differ. When I was shooting a wheel gun none of our local C class shooters could run with me on 6 round stand and deliver courses and I am not a pro by any stretch of the imagination. Edited May 12, 2009 by Ron Ankeny

[Waltermitty]

Hmmm...my accuracy was better double action than with single action. Come to think of it, I don't recall anyone cocking a revolver to shoot the 100 dollar bill side match in the now defunct National Shooter's League. Another thought comes to mind, how many PPC Championships were won with guys shooting DA at the 50 yard line? How come so many had their revolvers set up double action only?

If you can run your DA revolver with the average (C class) Limited shooter on 6 round neutral courses, you could be Pro by this time next year.

I would beg to differ. When I was shooting a wheel gun none of our local C class shooters could run with me on 6 round stand and deliver courses and I am not a pro by any stretch of the imagination.

Ha! OK. Set up CM 03-10 and/or CM 08-06 at next months club match and send us a link to your results. Let's see how many C shooters (shooting "C" scores) you beat. On with the challenge!

[professor]

I remember when I first started shooting that I couldn't hit the bullseye on a static piece of paper unless I was shooting single action revolver at 5 yards.

About the time I got tired of trying to hit those little tiny dots that I could barely see, I discovered IPSC matches. Not only were the targets BIG, but there were a lot of them, and nobody yelled at me for shooting at them fast. Of course, "fast" for me was like molasses to the regulars at the club I joined.

And they started playing with my mind, by putting out these little square steel things, and telling me I had to hit them from 25 yards away. I'd waste one shot on a futile attempt to hit it SA, and go on with the rest of the COF, taking the penalty mike.

The straw that broke the camel's back, forcing me to learn how to shoot more accurately at a reasonable speed, was a COF that required engaging an array of 16 IPSC targets which were all reduced to the upper A/B zone as viable hits. Even shooting SA wasn't good enough to avoid my zeroing out the stage.

After considerable dry firing to learn trigger control, and live fire practice to learn what my grip was doing when the bullets were actually going off, I learned to shoot DA on those targets, accurately and at a reasonable speed. Now, SA is not an option, as the hammer spur was sacrificed to the "light trigger" gods... and I don't miss it.

What you've got to keep in mind is that DA vs SA accuracy in USPSA matches comes down to the time to cock and fire SA vs calling your shots firing DA. The gun will cycle a lot faster than I can pull the trigger, so that's a lower limit on the time between shots. Take it out to 50 yards and you just have to know what your bullet drop is at that distance.

Can't do it without practice, though.

Edited May 13, 2009 by professor

[Carmoney]

I get better accuracy and have shot better groups (25 yards) with a DA revolver then I have ever shot with an auto-loader. I believe this is because a revolver in DA does not have a distinct point where the shot breaks so I can't anticipate.

Bingo!

[Carmoney]

Ha! OK. Set up CM 03-10 and/or CM 08-06 at next months club match and send us a link to your results. Let's see how many C shooters (shooting "C" scores) you beat. On with the challenge!

Walt, all you have to do is look back through the major match scores over the past few years and you will quickly see that C-class Limited shooters do not beat the better Revolver shooters. Take a look at the hit factors on the classifiers at the Summer Blast over the past few years, just to take one example that comes to mind. Cliff's score on 06-03 Can You Count beat 28 of the 30 C-class Limited shooters on that stage at last year's match, and we all know that stage is a total hose-fest which you would think would favor the Limited blasters. In 2007, Cliff and I both shot 99-11 El Prez scores that beat all the C Limited guys. In 2006, I shot a score on 03-18 High Standards that beat all the C Limited shooters, and that stage involves shooting half the shots one-handed and making two reloads on the clock.

Next challenge?

[Carmoney]

Yes, that's a challenge to any and all takers. If you can run your DA revolver with the average (C class) Limited shooter on 6 round neutral courses, you could be Pro by this time next year.

Anytime, anywhere.

[Waltermitty]

Ha! OK. Set up CM 03-10 and/or CM 08-06 at next months club match and send us a link to your results. Let's see how many C shooters (shooting "C" scores) you beat. On with the challenge!

Walt, all you have to do is look back through the major match scores over the past few years and you will quickly see that C-class Limited shooters do not beat the better Revolver shooters. Take a look at the hit factors on the classifiers at the Summer Blast over the past few years, just to take one example that comes to mind. Cliff's score on 06-03 Can You Count beat 28 of the 30 C-class Limited shooters on that stage at last year's match, and we all know that stage is a total hose-fest which you would think would favor the Limited blasters. In 2007, Cliff and I both shot 99-11 El Prez scores that beat all the C Limited guys. In 2006, I shot a score on 03-18 High Standards that beat all the C Limited shooters, and that stage involves shooting half the shots one-handed and making two reloads on the clock.

Next challenge?

Correct me if I'm wrong, (because the USPSA website won't load right for me to confirm) but both you and Cliff are GM's in the top 10 or so revolver shooters in the U.S.; and whether you've considered it or not you could probably find some sponsors to defray your shooting costs. You both also know yourselves better than I do, but if you quit your day-jobs and shot as much as Jerry, could you go Pro full time?

Also, this thread (and my comments) were on the OP's question about *accuracy*. If you're using "Can You Count" as an example of an *accuracy* stage, we certainly are looking at it from different perspectives. There's no question a GM revo should beat C class bottom feeders on that stage.

Back on stage #19 from Nationals, you scored 65 points and Cliff tied with me (do I recall saying I suck?) at 53. Look at the limited results and 2 "C" shooters beat you while 5 "C's" and 2 "D's" beat Cliff (and some guy that sucks). We won't go into how many B's, A's, M's and GM's were ahead of that.

So my point stands on accuracy as posted in the response to the OP. Can a revolver shooter aspire to shoot 6 plates at 25 yards faster in DA than SA? Sure, and you'll have to to be competetive (whoa, Deja Vu) but can DA revolvers compete at the limits with SA firearms when accuracy is the deciding factor? I say no; and I think if you've got to use "Can you Count" to beat "C" class shooters you confirm my point.

What I said was: "Yes, that's a challenge to any and all takers. If you can run your DA revolver with the average (C class) Limited shooter on 6 round neutral courses, you could be Pro by this time next year."

Your own standing (and Cliff's) in the classification system as GM's and your performance on a stage defined by the accuracy requirements seem to support that argument.

[Bones]

Of course semi-auto shooters can't hit anything - their sights are always moving back and forth...

Craig

[Carmoney]

Your own standing (and Cliff's) in the classification system as GM's and your performance on a stage defined by the accuracy requirements seem to support that argument.

I'm only an M in Revolver Division, not a GM. I have tried to avoid the "class inflation" that hit Revolver Division a few years ago and turned a bunch of B-level shooters into instantaneous paper GMs.

I can consistently get into the mid- to high-80 percentile range at major matches against Jerry--which in my book makes me a fairly solid M. Until I can shoot at 95% of Jerry, I'm really not sure I deserve to be a GM.

[pskys2]

It seems irrelevant. I've yet to run into a Revolver that's as accurate as an accurized 1911. Then all the Revo's I've shot had action jobs, not accuracy work.

It's easier, given plenty of time, to shoot a SA trigger of any firearm, if you can control the urge to snap the shot.

But if you look at doing it under time at speed it starts getting closer.

It all boils down to the Shooter, good ones make good shots and any gun better.

There was a valid reason Brian used a Revolver at the Bianchi Cup, and I think one of the reasons was more consistent scores on the Plates.

If I was to want to take a single shot, hit my target and didn't have to worry about time, I'd use the most accurate SA firearm I had.

If the shot was going to be under time, including reaction times needed then I'd use the most accurate firearm I had regardless of trigger.

So the short answer, SA is probalby easier to attain accurate groups from say a rest (with most shooters it would probably be easier even freestyle). But at speed it's much easier to get good groups with a DA freestyle.

[adweisbe]

Keep in mind the OP didn't ask about accuracy with speed. I think you run into the mechanical limits of the gun well before you run into the ergonomic limits introduced by tuned DA vs. SA.

[Waltermitty]

Your own standing (and Cliff's) in the classification system as GM's and your performance on a stage defined by the accuracy requirements seem to support that argument.

I'm only an M in Revolver Division, not a GM. I have tried to avoid the "class inflation" that hit Revolver Division a few years ago and turned a bunch of B-level shooters into instantaneous paper GMs.

I can consistently get into the mid- to high-80 percentile range at major matches against Jerry--which in my book makes me a fairly solid M. Until I can shoot at 95% of Jerry, I'm really not sure I deserve to be a GM.

I have gotten caught up in the class inflation when a fluke run on an all-steel classifier bumped me up into "A" class just days before the 2007 Nationals. So I'm a "B" class shooter scoring "C" class results carrying an "A" class card.

But back in the day when virtually *all* classifiers were 6 round neutral, and revolver classifiers were scored as "discounted" limited runs, the only GM in the world was Jerry (by virtue of winning the major matches, *not* by shooting heads up classifiers against SA guns, even with a bonus) there were some "paper" M's (some of which I suspect either Gundecked their scores or ran them over and over again until they got a score they wanted to send in) and the rest of the "Top 20" down to about "B" class was populated by GM's and M's in other divisions that just happened to get 4 revolver classifiers run.

If the DA/SA issue was moot, I don't think the "Top 20" revo division list would have only *10* shooters in it or the "Top 20" revo Masters would have 17 scores below 90%. How many 6 division GM's are there? How many 5 divison GM's?

So leaving out the exceptions, like that time Bubber won the Open divison classifier at an OKC club match a while back (he's got a "M" card in USPSA Open that he earned with a revo in case you didn't know) or that time I can remember beating all of the "C" shooters and several others on my "fluke" run, on any typical match day that includes long and/or very tights shots the SA guns will beat the DA guns.

That's one reason why we have a Production division *and* a Limited 10 division. Comparing apples to apples, a SA with a sub-2 pound trigger will beat a 5 pound DA consistently over time.

All the anecdotes we like to tell "about that time back when..." won't change the fundamentals. I don't want to discourage anybody from trying, quite the opposite, give it your best shot.

[Toolguy]

I have shot metallic silhouette for many years shooting only Smith revolvers, double action only. Have shot a lot of high

30s and 2 40 out of 40 in Big Bore where the targets start at 50 meters and go to 200 meters. Everyone else with their

bolt actions and single shots with hair triggers took 2 minutes to fire 5 shots. That is the normal time allowed. My last

40 out of 40, I took a total of 84 seconds to shoot 40 shots. That is a little over 2 seconds per shot on average. That

was with an 8-3/8 629 Classic DX and 300 grain Hornady XTP bullets. That is why I say you can be accurate with a

well tuned D/A, and I never feel the need or desire to shoot anything single action. I would like to see the S/A auto

guys try to beat that for speed and accuracy.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Toolguy

[Storm52]

Does DA accuracy…, ...ever catch up with SA accuracy? That was the OP's question. The thread has gone around the barn a few times. Has it been definitively answered? Somewhere in the posts you can gleen a bit of advice. Yes, accuracy will catch up.

[Spray_N_Prey]

Ha! OK. Set up CM 03-10 and/or CM 08-06 at next months club match and send us a link to your results. Let's see how many C shooters (shooting "C" scores) you beat. On with the challenge!

Well I haven't shot those classifiers, but I did shoot this one (my first revolver) right after I shot it limited and it was a 6 shot friendly course.

Scroll down to "off balance blast"

http://www.joplingunclub.com/japl/scores/2009/feb_2009.html

[hopalong]

BadChad,

Short answer.

YES !!!!

But it won't happen just thinking about it !

Hop

[20nickels]

I just got a 617 (no trigger work) to practice with and was out shooting it this morning. Single action I was banging 10/10 on an 8” plate at 25 yards almost without effort. Double action I was hitting 6-9/10 on the same plate and I was concentrating hard. Weak and strong hand at closer distances the difference between single and double action accuracy were considerably more apparent. I normally shoot a Glock and am relatively new to revolvers. So I’m wondering, with a lot of practice does DA ever catch up with SA trigger pulls, or does DA only improve, but is never as good.

A 617 is how I broke my DA revolver trigger finger in. Just get a couple bulk packs of Federal Auto Match from Wal-Mart and have at it. Don't forget the 6mm brush to clean the chambers (often) with. Also it helps to have grips that fit you. A big plus for shooting wheels is the ability to change grips.