Sig Sauer P220 for CDP? P220 Elite? P220 Match?

[Lumpy McSoo]

How many shooters out there use a Sig 220 for CDP?

What mods do you use, if any? Trigger jobs? New short reset trigger?

Also, does the new Sig P220 Match fit in the box. It says it is 8.9 inches but only 5.5 inches high, so is there enough wiggle room to fit in the 8.75 inch x 6 inch x 1.625 inch IDPA box?

The P220 Elite looks like a great one if the Match is too big. Anyone have a 220 Elite with the new short reset trigger? Is it that much different?

Just curious about Sigs in CDP.

Thanks, Lumpy.

[Joe D]

There are better choices for CDP. Sigs and HKs are known for their high bore axis.

[Lumpy McSoo]

Joe D,

I appreciate the reply. I do have to ask for more information from your response.

1.) What pistol or pistols are your thinkng of for a good brand for CDP? Glock 21s and S&W M&Ps have a more in line bore axis but the Sigs and HKs have a strong following. 1911s are high for their bore axis as well since my 1911s feed 200 gr Semi Wad Cutters but my Glock 21 will not feed 200 gr Semi Wad Cutters at all. That bore axis can be quite boring at times.

2.) Due to the significant following of many agencies to use a Sig or a H&K (.45 ACP caliber), why do they continue to use this weapon if the bore axis is much too high?

3.) I love the 1911 in controlled circumstances. I love my Glock 21 all around. I am beginning to love my Sig 220 and soon to be 220 Elite almost as much as my Glock, perhaps more, since I like a lady with a littl more heft.

Sorry to question you but I was honestly hoping for many replies from the peanut gallery, although it a well informed peanut gallery, or so I thougt.

Later, Lumpy McSoo.

[Shawn Knight]

I am pretty sure that CDP has been won by a SIG only once and that was Ernie Langdon.

David Olhasso has been rulling the roost lately with the XD and now the M&P. You are correct in saying that SIGs and HKs have a following but they are not nearly as good for this Division as other guns available. Having a single trigger pull makes for a very easy to use gun and it just makes sense to use what works. I think it comes down to the fact that the XDs and M&Ps are easily configured for weight and fit well into the CDP Division with minimal changes.

As far as what gun is used by what agency that is up to the agency and what they choose for their standards.

Still the gun is only as good as the shooter.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Shawn Knight

[Joe D]

Most LE gun purchases are based on cost. In other words who will give them the best deal. Bear in mind 95% of LEOs can't hit their butt with both hands. I worked with three agencies in Atlanta when we lived there. I was good friends with one of the LT/Training Officers at Norcross PD. I told him I thought their Qualification course was way too easy. His comment was if he made it harder they would not have any Officers on the street.

I never see Sigs or HKs at IDPA matches. IMO they are just too difficult to shoot with speed and accuracy. Yes I know CDP has been won by guns other than 1911s. OTOH those that won could win with any gun. The M&P is the only gun I would consider for CDP other than a G21 or 1911. It does not work for me. None of the grip panels felt right.

The G21 I had would feed 200 gr LSWC without any issues. No leading problems either. If you are having feed problems just switch to a 230 RN.

Here's a suggestion. Set up a simple IDPA stage with little to no movement. A 12 round stage has enough shots. Run 10 strings with your G21 and 10 with the Sig. Time and score each string. Throw out the best and worst string with each gun.

This test will give you a pretty good indication of which gun you shoot the best.

I did this same test with a 9mm Kimber vs a G35. It felt like I was very fast and smooth with the Kimber. When I shot the G35 I felt slower. OTOH when I totaled up the scores my time was a good bit lower with the Glock.

The G21 can be shot in all three Divisions. A G21 at a 135 pf makes a pretty good SSP gun.

[Lumpy McSoo]

Thanks guys,

That is a good bit of information for me to digest as well as some tests for me to run. I will go off and do some testing and let the data make the choice. My feeling is that my G-21 will be the fastest of my 1911 and P220 but the chips shall fall where they may. My 1911 off of a bench is definately the most accurate but then again, when do we shoot IDPA or for self defense purposes off of a bench...

Thanks again, Lumpy.

[Shawn Knight]

I know plenty of guys that shoot their self defense guns in IDPA. They are pretty darned good too with 2 of the being 5 guns masters. It doesn't take much to get a G21 to shoot just a little better and still be a very good defense gun.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Shawn Knight

[Jim Watson]

I kind of like Sig Sauers in spite of the faults Joe finds, but I really wonder about their design and marketing departments' connection to the real world. Why would they make a lightweight .45 too big to fit The Box and call it a "Match" pistol? I don't know of a match that it is suitable for. Can't shoot it in IDPA at all or in USPSA Single Stack.

Reminds me of the "Sport" series. I never found anybody who could tell me what sport a compensated iron sighted DA-SA pistol would be well suited for, no matter how accurate.

[Bongo Boy]

How many shooters out there use a Sig 220 for CDP? What mods do you use, if any? Trigger jobs? New short reset trigger?

The Hardware: Sig P220 Stainless Elite with SRT, short trigger and improvised overtravel stop. No other mods (except cosmetic--trigger guard hook and tac rail have both been surgically removed). So...

I've shot just two local-level IDPA matches, and just one with the P220--my most recent match. I simply wanted to own a 220, period, and felt it would be a great CDP gun, not knowing any better. So...I didn't set out to find a great CDP competitive pistol...I found the gun I felt I wanted, then checked to see what divisions if any it was legal in.

I certainly can't disagree with any of the comments already made about the 220 having some disadvantages over other choices...I simply don't have any experience to say whether these are important or not. What I can say based only on my own experience is that the gun poses no significant obstacles to my shooting at this level. I just don't believe it's a factor in my overall performance.

In a 4-stage match this past weekend, I looked at my statistics and it was very interesting (to me at least--since it's all about me). In CDP I placed 6th of 15 shooters, and placed 15th of all 60 shooters, regardless of division. Of more interest: I ranked 4th of all 60 shooters in overall raw time, and ranked 56th of all shooters in overall points down. What a coinky-dink, eh? 4th from top in speed, 4th from bottom in accuracy. In this particular case at least, speed DID make up for inaccuracy...given I had no outright misses.

Anyway, the Big Point is this: the Sig did everything it was told to do, and I don't believe any other weapon would have compensated for my near-panic on all but one stage. Lack of adrenaline control meant not aiming & not controlling the trigger--not waiting for the shot before taking it. Bang bang bang bang. The very thing I was astounded to see some IPSC shooters do, while wondering what the hell was wrong with them. Now I know!

Again, at my level, the DA/SA thing is not a factor...I don't believe the DA first shot has had any impact on my out-of-the-holster performance, either in terms of speed or accuracy. In fact I'd say it's a training aid--it forces me to concentrate on the sights as I pull the trigger, when I'm at the practice range. When I DO get my bidnith together while under pressure, I still don't think I'll be in any way bothered by the DA/SA, even without a trigger job. Maybe 20 matches from now after I've learned something.

I think I have a great chance of doing well in IDPA competition but can't see myself being frustrated by the gun for quite some time.

Having said all that...if I had a do-over and approached this from a "I want to find a great CDP gun" angle, I'd go after a moderately-priced, moderately tweaked 1911 that I wouldn't be embarassed to carry if I had to. The more I shoot and the more I watch others shoot, the more I'm convinced the 1911 represents the apex of big bore sidearm design. A second, modern 1911 with some late 20th-century refinements will likely be my next choice.

I've openly admitted I don't much and have fully exposed my lack of experience...so this is a classic 'internet expert' opinion. But I'm sticking to it.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[cyberiad]

I occasionally use my P226 or P220 in local matches. For me, the Sig requires a commitment to train to work the DA first shot that just isn't required with a Glock and I've proven too lazy to do it work on it consistently. Having said that, after shooting TDA for a while the first shot isn't the issue, it's the SA shots afterward that cause me problems. I always seem to jerk the single action trigger because I'm so used to being able to work the reset on a Glock.

I think bore axis is a non-issue. Admittedly, I have oddly shaped hands but when I hold a standard P220 the bore is lower or the same in relation to my hand than any 1911 I've used (I don't like a "high cut" front strap). The P220 is way "oversprung" from the factory. Put a 16 or 14 pound spring in it and it's much nicer in my opinion. The placement of the slide catch lever is another problem I have with any Sig. I can easily hit the lever on a Glock or 1911 with my thumb but find it awkward with a Sig.

Give me a single action pistol with the grip shape of a P220 and the slide catch lever in the "correct" place for my hand and I would shoot almost nothing else.

[Mo Hepworth]

RE: HK for IDPA/CDP--I think the HK you use can make a difference,....the new HK P30-L has a lower bore axis than the USP series,..and also has a lighter weight recoil spring,..but utilizes a small buffer. It works 100% and shoots flat.

[Doublehaul]

Langdon's P220 definitely wasn't any kind of factory gun. He welded on a beavertail and a bunch of other mods. One of the new P220 Match Elite series with the beavertail might be OK for CDP but their is still the bore axis issue. Another grumble I have is the slide release is too far back for a high thumbs forward grip. I have never been able to remember to keep my right thumb high enough to allow it to lock open on any SIG. I had to work through this at FLETC last year, too but at least they teach the Iso grip and stance.

The P220 might be the most accurate box stock hun out there.

[Glock3422]

How many shooters out there use a Sig 220 for CDP? What mods do you use, if any? Trigger jobs? New short reset trigger?

The Hardware: Sig P220 Stainless Elite with SRT, short trigger and improvised overtravel stop. No other mods (except cosmetic--trigger guard hook and tac rail have both been surgically removed). So...

You might want to check the weight of that gun with an empty mag against the CDP limit.

[Bongo Boy]

How many shooters out there use a Sig 220 for CDP? What mods do you use, if any? Trigger jobs? New short reset trigger?

The Hardware: Sig P220 Stainless Elite with SRT, short trigger and improvised overtravel stop. No other mods (except cosmetic--trigger guard hook and tac rail have both been surgically removed). So...

You might want to check the weight of that gun with an empty mag against the CDP limit.

Sig says 39.1 oz, but with tac rail, trigger guard hook and about .19" of beavertail removed, my scales show me at 40 5/8 oz.

I routinely bumped the slide release with my thumb, too, but have been carefully bending the tab upwards a little at a time, bringing it out more horizontally. Seems to help, but there's a limit of course without heating it up to bend it, then having to re-heat treat it.

In my first classifier I WOULD have placed 2nd in Division (out of 16) with the 220 had I picked up my magazine on two tac loads. Funny how raw time isn't actually as much a problem as basics. at my level. Instead, I placed 6th. You just wanna cry like a little girl. Six seconds due to brain fart.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[granderojo]

In CDP, you may start your Sigs w/hammer back, first shot is SA. Only SSP requires that the starting position for the hammer is DOWN. Had a friend that shot a 229 in 40 cal. in SSP and was very fast with it. He had it's timing down.

Hope this helps.

Granderojo

[Jim Watson]

In CDP, you may start your Sigs w/hammer back, first shot is SA.

Not unless it is the SAO model with thumb safety. I don't know about the rest of the SOs here, but I do not interpret the rule:

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design

to permit holstering a cocked gun with no manual safety, "Condition Zero."

Shoot a P220 DA-SA in CDP if you like, but around here you must decock it.

[granderojo]

Thanks Jim for correcting my mistake. You have to start w/the hammer in the decocked position.

My appologies for the misinformation.

Granderojo

[Bongo Boy]

Shoot a P220 DA-SA in CDP if you like, but around here you must decock it.

Absolutely. No question.

Thanks Jim for correcting my mistake. You have to start w/the hammer in the decocked position.

My appologies for the misinformation.

It's not something anyone would have been misled by, really...no biggie. Maybe if you were totally new to the gun, but even then I doubt it. I say this because holstering that thing cocked would simply not feel right...you'd just 'know' something was wrong just like not flipping the safety up on an '11 before recovering. Doing either of these (no decock on DA/SA or no safety on SAO) and holstering would really make me ill to my stomach (no exagerration) and probably useless for the remainder of the match. Not that I'm not normally useless... Edited July 25, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[Jim Watson]

I dunno, B.B., I have seen people do some strange things through ignorance or misinformation. Holstering a Condition Zero gun is pretty mild as such things go, even though the rules do not allow it.

[Bongo Boy]

I dunno, B.B., I have seen people do some strange things through ignorance or misinformation. Holstering a Condition Zero gun is pretty mild as such things go, even though the rules do not allow it.

So long as you've mastered keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, I suppose.

[Gryff]

I think that the 220 Match SAO might be an interesting gun to try in CDP. Regardless of bore axis, if you shoot the gun well, then it can often compensate quite a bit for less-than-theoretically perfect mechanical ideals.

One of the new P220 Match Elite series with the beavertail might be OK for CDP but their is still the bore axis issue.

I believe that the Match Elite won't fit in the IDPA box. I know the regular 220 Match will fit, but the beavertail on the Elite makes it too long (I think).

Edited July 31, 2009 by Gryff