rhino Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 they speak about an "off-the-clock reload", how does that work????--Detlef Detlef . . . Tightloop explained it well. The motivation arises from whiners who can't do the prescribed "tactical reload" very quickly, so it hurts their score. And some clubs will actually indulge this and incorporate it into stages. At that point it becomes more or less an administrative task. The way I see it, getting down and up from the ground hurts my scores a LOT in IDPA, but I doubt if I'll have much luck getting anyone to take it "off the clock." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Actually it results from the fact (Personal thought shared by many, maybe) that NO ONE will ever do a TL durring a gunfight! Hackathorn said he wished they would do away with it completely. I agree. I am happy to here you guys liked the match. It my home club and we worked hard to have what you saw. The pavilion was not there 2 months ago. Nine of the ranges were not there a year ago. Larry P CSO for the parking deck stage! PS for the record I do a TL in 2 seconds and a RWR in around 1.6 Theyll be faster next year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 Actually it results from the fact (Personal thought shared by many, maybe) that NO ONE will ever do a TL durring a gunfight! Hackathorn said he wished they would do away with it completely. I agree. Hey, Larry! I kow they say that now, but do you really believe that's the real reason? I maintain that if all of the whiners could do a "tactical" reload as fast as you, they would all be on the clock. As far as not doing it during a civilian self-defense gunfight . . . I agree, unless you're behind a big concrete wall. And then you should probably stay there instead of poking your head around trying to shoot it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Rhino The reason they have an off the clock reload is to avoid having to exceed 18 rounds in one scenario, and also makes it easier on the MD to run it as a continuation of an existing scenario than set up something else with another set of props. Also increases the shot count for those who think they must have a certain number to have a really good match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Hey, Larry!I kow they say that now, but do you really believe that's the real reason? I maintain that if all of the whiners could do a "tactical" reload as fast as you, they would all be on the clock. Go ahead and consider me a WHINER that can and still complains about them! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 I always considered the on-the-clock TLs a major inconsistency with IDPA's claim of being *more relaistic* than IPSC. As TL pointed out, the TL was and is still considered a task to be performed in the lull of an action, not in the middle... Thanks for the explanation, I've never seen that done off the clock, but then, I don't shoot much IDPA... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 Go ahead and consider me a WHINER that can and still complains about them! All right, you cheeky monkey! You win. This time. Don't go gettin' cocky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 I always considered the on-the-clock TLs a major inconsistency with IDPA's claim of being *more relaistic* than IPSC. As TL pointed out, the TL was and is still considered a task to be performed in the lull of an action, not in the middle... Don't get me started on that! Let's not forget that squatting "isn't tactical." And "realistically," the whole idea of keeping time is ridiculous, especially on stage with lots of cover/house clearing etc. It would be beyond foolhardy to blow through a house alone the way people do in matches. Generous par times on almost every stage would be more realistic, but the competition/game would suffer. Plus, for most scenarios I've shot, the proper course of action would be to turn and run for my truck, screaming like a little girl the whole time. Then, while peeling out of the parking lot, dialing 911 on the mobile phone. The problem (as I see it) is that lip service is paid to realism in most cases and far too few people will admit that it's a game like any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 totally true, but maybe stuff more for the *What I hate* threads?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 And "realistically," the whole idea of keeping time is ridiculous, especially on stage with lots of cover/house clearing etc. It would be beyond foolhardy to blow through a house alone the way people do in matches. Generous par times on almost every stage would be more realistic, but the competition/game would suffer.. This is a problem with Tactics! For some situations running through the house at full bore shooting anything that moved would be my technique! I talked to a VERY experienced person recently that has BTDT. His statement was "Situation dictates tactics" there in lies the problem with realism on any IDPA/IPSC stage. TGO, BE, Burkett etc would possibly/probably have a TOTALY different approch to the exact same situation that I would. Based solely on thier ability. You also have age, mobility, mindset, family etc. The exact same situation will have different "tactical" solutions based on all the above. FWIW if I ever HAVE to do a real houseclearing like we do in IDPA, I will START like we do in IDPA and after the first shot I will probably IPSC it. Create as much hell and havoc in as short a time as possible just like SWAT does! You start trying to sneak around in a normal building with anyone that knows anything and you are behind the 8 ball, BIG TIME! It aint hollywood bullets actually penetrate 99% of the interior walls After the 1st shot its dynamic! JMO Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 totally true, but maybe stuff more for the *What I hate* threads?!? You're right . . . . . . but I'm a scofflaw when it comes to staying on topic. The Topic Cops will never catch me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Grenades, we need lots of grenades to be tactical. Flash bangs for sure and phosphorous in case you get real mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Grenades, we need lots of grenades to be tactical. Flash bangs for sure and phosphorous in case you get real mad. NOW THATS how you do a House clearing!!! I wanna ninja suit too! I think you have to wear one to be "tactical" Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 House clearing? House clearing? We did that once and made a lot of money at it. You just have to price things reasonable and be willing to haggle!! Now as to the phosphorous.........well thats a house warming. As far as fast goes, It works for SWAT because they brought lots of friends kevlar, and in the end almost all neofarous people comply! When It comes to one guy......well DYNAMIC doesn't even begin to describe it. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Well, snce this thread has drifted so far, I thought I might as well throw in lyrics from a moving and profound country song written by my old pal Marshall Chapman: "He thought Betty was talking jive "Til Betty came out with a .45 A .45's faster than 409 And Betty cleaned the house for the very last time..." RE: Tac loads, I gotta believe its days are numbered. The current issue of POLICE MARKSMAN mag had a long article urging LEO instructors to not teach such a ridiculous thing. Watch for my upcoming sendup of the TL in HANDGUNS magazine..."Another ingenious solution to a non-existant problem...but this one will honestly get you killed!" Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Yea, It really should be called an administrative reload; to make sure that thing is full after the trouble is over, so it is ready for the next trouble. To mix the words of Rhino and MBane45. The pistol is only there to fight your way to your 409, that you shouldn't have gotten out of in the first place! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 3, 2003 Author Share Posted October 3, 2003 And just to be mister complicated . . . I can think of situations where tac loads could actually be very useful, but mostly in military combat situations where you have lots of buddies with you. Consider the now famous "Blackhawk Down" debacle in Mogadishu, Somalia. Prior to that time, US Army Rangers were taught only speed reloads, which is great if you have open supply lines. In this case, though, they ran out of ammuntion and had no chance for immediate resupply. They left a lot of partially loaded magazines along the way that could have been useful later. Louis Awerbuck was telling about this during a recent carbine class (and I'm too intimidated by him to risk not believing it). If you have geniune cover, AND a few spare seconds before you have to haul a** to the next position, sometimes it would be good to have a so-called tactical reload in your bag of rifle tricks. If I have a dump pouch, I can do one (the way Louis taught me) about as fast as I can a speed load anyway. For one reason, it's easier for me to consistently slap my fresh mag into the "L" position with the mag in the rifle, and then switch them than it is for me to drop one, then bring one all the way from my carrier all the way into the magwell of the rifle. But maybe that's just me! But of course, if you're by yourself with a puny handgun in a typical civilian defensive situation . . . the idea of tactical reloads is kinda silly, until everything's over and then it becomes once again an adminstrative manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I have a drill I run in my Sim gun classes when asked about the famous Tactical Reload. I stand 2 students about 15 feet apart, holding a cocked and loaded sim gun. I tell them at the beep one is perform a speed reload and the other to perfrom a TL. They will then shoot the other student. Whoever gets shot 1st can't shoot the other student, but the student who didn't get shot 1st can shot the other student as many times as they want. I rarely get asked about the advantages of the TL twice........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 4, 2003 Author Share Posted October 4, 2003 That's a pretty persuasive argument. It would suck to get pelted by a whole bunch of rounds really fast from a subgun. I hope I never find out for myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 So Bob who wins anyway? Here is the funniest thing about pieing the corner sneak and peak room clearing that most people forget: it is really easy to be sneaky with your earmuffs on and it only works on the first room if they didn't hear you. After that they know your coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Rhino shot me with an sirsoft today. It hurt. I think I'll make a post in the what I like forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Also increases the shot count for those who think they must have a certain number to have a really good match. I have never understood this. At my local IDPA club lately, IMHO, the quality of the stages has been improving immensely. The "weirdness/what the hell were they thinking" factor seems to be an endangered species. The matches are about half-and-half straighforward scenarios to test movement skills, reloading and use of cover, and standards exercises to test pure gun handling skill. The last few matches, total round count has been in the 60s. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Duane Great, send you SO's down here. It's still FUBAR in TX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 Rhino shot me with an sirsoft today. It hurt. I think I'll make a post in the what I like forum. You totally deserved it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Rhino You should probably cut out the joking around on an IDPA thread. This stuff is serious. Wow, I just realized that maybe I should be shooting IDPA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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