Must activate a moving target?

[Collecting A's]

Do you have to activate a moving target before engaging if it is not in the written stage description?

Rule 9.9 mentions something about it for a level one match but I couldn't find anything else about it.

[mgood]

9.9.3

Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

EDIT: Oh, I think I see what you're asking. You're wanting to know if you can shoot the mover before you trigger it's movement?

According to 9.9.4, If the WSB prohibits, then no. Otherwise, I guess you can take advantage of the poor stage design.

I ass-u-me that at higher level competitions, a stage with a mover that could possibly be engaged before being activated would not get approved.

Edited April 9, 2009 by mgood

[Pat Miles]

Any stage that does not have the moving target hidden behind a wall, no shoot or hard cover so it cannot be shot before the activator is a good example of poor stage design. Yeah, there will be a few exceptions to this but not doing so is asking for never ending arguements.

CYa,

Pat

[Skizeks]

Good question!!! This happened. Bear trap target was activated by a pressure pad in front of a port. (A bear trap target is one that layes on the ground until acivated, then it comes up and a no shoot comes up in front of it covering some of the target). It could be the last target you engage depending on what you come up with for the stage.

You could see the target laying on the ground from a port up range. A couple shooters shot the target laying on the ground from that port then went and steped on the pad to trip the target. All fine and well. A couple shooters shot it like that but did not step on the pad to trip the target.

9.9.3

Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

They where scored with 2 mikes and a FTE Per rule 9.9.3.. One didn't agree with the call saying how could you give mikes on the target when there ar 2 hits on it? The CRO and RM agreed with the call and it went to arbitration. The arbitration commitee agreed with it and the scoring stood as is.

The shooter E-mailed an RMI and he agreed with them that there should not have been mikes and FTE for the target.

So when does always mean always?

I know this is poor stage design, but it is what it is and it was shot like this!! So it has to be dealt with.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Skizeks

[mgood]

So I guess if they'd shot the target on the ground and then stepped on the pressure pad, it would have been legal.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Good question!!! This happened. Bear trap target was activated by a pressure pad in front of a port. (A bear trap target is one that layes on the ground until acivated, then it comes up and a no shoot comes up in front of it covering some of the target). It could be the last target you engage depending on what you come up with for the stage.

You could see the target laying on the ground from a port up range. A couple shooters shot the target laying on the ground from that port then went and steped on the pad to trip the target. All fine and well. A couple shooters shot it like that but did not step on the pad to trip the target.

9.9.3

Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

They where scored with 2 mikes and a FTE Per rule 9.9.3.. One didn't agree with the call saying how could you give mikes on the target when there ar 2 hits on it? The CRO and RM agreed with the call and it went to arbitration. The arbitration commitee agreed with it and the scoring stood as is.

The shooter E-mailed an RMI and he agreed with them that there should not have been mikes and FTE for the target.

So when does always mean always?

I know this is poor stage design, but it is what it is and it was shot like this!! So it has to be dealt with.

Yes. 9.9.3 would apply in this situation. If they didn't activate it, then they are assessed misses and the FTE per the rule. If they DID activate it, then no problem. The rule doesn't say you have to activate it THEN shoot it... just says you have to activate it.

However, your overall point is correct. PPCD in this situation. If they didn't want them shooting it on the ground, they shouldn't have made it possible to do it.

Frank

[SmittyFL]

Any stage that does not have the moving target hidden behind a wall, no shoot or hard cover so it cannot be shot before the activator is a good example of poor stage design. Yeah, there will be a few exceptions to this but not doing so is asking for never ending arguements.

CYa,

Pat

Not necessarily Pat. I can envision a stage with a very small portion of the head visible behind some real hard cover for example with maybe a foot activator further away. It leaves it up to the shooter to chance the small head shot or go activate it.

I think 9.9.3 was written with very little thought. If a foot activator or something other than a popper activates one or more drop turners that disappear and the shooter determines they would score better by not shooting the DT then they just have to finish the stage as they wish and calmly walk over and step on the activator essentially off the clock. Thus making the RO reset the target for no reason.

I think that rule needs to go. One way to use disappearing targets in my opinion is to have them so that it makes the shooter think if it is worth it or not. It builds more options into a stage I think.

In fact I'm designing a stage for the FL State match and I'm going to state 9.9.3 does not apply in the WSB. We'll see if that passes with USPSA for a Level II. I don't see why it shouldn't.

[Pat Miles]

Smitty,

I agree with your scenario. The A zone of the head could be visible before the start of the movement or in the case of a non dissapearing target after the rest of the target stopped behind a no shoot or hard cover. In either case the shooter has a decision to make, two hard shots or use the pressure pad and take the targets at a later point. If the stage is designed well the shooter will have one or two other targets to shoot between activating the mover and shooting the mover making it more of a timing issue.

My basic point was to not design a stage where the target that needs to be activated is easily shot before activating it, thus incurring all sorts of discussion and arguements after the fact.

CYa,

Pat

[Nik Habicht]

I think 9.9.3 was written with very little thought. If a foot activator or something other than a popper activates one or more drop turners that disappear and the shooter determines they would score better by not shooting the DT then they just have to finish the stage as they wish and calmly walk over and step on the activator essentially off the clock. Thus making the RO reset the target for no reason.

And that's a reason to throw a rule out the window? At a Level II, shooter's don't have the option to engage a moving target prior to activation.....

I think that rule needs to go. One way to use disappearing targets in my opinion is to have them so that it makes the shooter think if it is worth it or not. It builds more options into a stage I think.

We have that right now --- the only requirement is that they're activated at some point for level I matches, prior to engaging them at level IIs. Use a popper for the activator, or a door that shooters must physically pass through, or something similar, and all of these issues go away.....

In fact I'm designing a stage for the FL State match and I'm going to state 9.9.3 does not apply in the WSB. We'll see if that passes with USPSA for a Level II. I don't see why it shouldn't.

Good luck with throwing out selected rules on a stage by stage basis; that's a pretty good way for match staff to lose an arbitration, even if the stages pass NROI review......

[coldchar]

Where does it say that on a Level 11 match the target must be activated before engaged.?

[SmittyFL]

I think 9.9.3 was written with very little thought. If a foot activator or something other than a popper activates one or more drop turners that disappear and the shooter determines they would score better by not shooting the DT then they just have to finish the stage as they wish and calmly walk over and step on the activator essentially off the clock. Thus making the RO reset the target for no reason.

And that's a reason to throw a rule out the window? At a Level II, shooter's don't have the option to engage a moving target prior to activation.....

I think that rule needs to go. One way to use disappearing targets in my opinion is to have them so that it makes the shooter think if it is worth it or not. It builds more options into a stage I think.

We have that right now --- the only requirement is that they're activated at some point for level I matches, prior to engaging them at level IIs. Use a popper for the activator, or a door that shooters must physically pass through, or something similar, and all of these issues go away.....

In fact I'm designing a stage for the FL State match and I'm going to state 9.9.3 does not apply in the WSB. We'll see if that passes with USPSA for a Level II. I don't see why it shouldn't.

Good luck with throwing out selected rules on a stage by stage basis; that's a pretty good way for match staff to lose an arbitration, even if the stages pass NROI review......

Maybe you misunderstood or I wasn't clear. Lets say there is a disappearing Drop Turner activated by a foot activator. If the shooter does not want to shoot the Drop Turner then why make them step on the pressure pad after they are done shooting for no reason? (other than to satisfy a poorly written 9.9.3)

[SmittyFL]

Where does it say that on a Level 11 match the target must be activated before engaged.?

You don't as I understand it. I think Nik made a mistake on that.

[Nik Habicht]

Where does it say that on a Level 11 match the target must be activated before engaged.?

You don't as I understand it. I think Nik made a mistake on that.

You're right --- it's a build the match rule.....

2.1.8.5.1

[mactiger]

Where does it say that on a Level 11 match the target must be activated before engaged.?

The rule book doesn't say that exactly, but it does say that at level one, the targets should be hidden, and at all other levels, they must be hidden prior to being activated. 2.1.8.5.1, as Nik stated, is the correct rule. Therefore, they can't be shot while un-activated at level II matches, IF the course is set up properly.

Disappearing targets are always problematic, and Smitty stated the problem well. You have to make them worth the time to activate, or make the activation cost something--a miss on a popper, FTE's/misses on the rest of the targets that were visible if you'd opened that door, etc. Foot activators just laying on the stage can cause problems like Smitty stated.

Having said that, you can't just strike a rule for a match, even if it's a level one; certainly not for a level II. See 1.3.1

There are specific exceptions for level one matches. They don't mean "anything goes". Level II matches are required to comply with the USPSA rule book, so you can't say "Rule xxx.xx doesn't exist for this stage". Stage design is the key.

Troy

Edited April 11, 2009 by mactiger

[Mistral404]

Troy, About six years ago at A4, the year with the two texas stars at 25 yards, there was a stage with a clam shell on the ground in plain sight about 5 yards from a port.

It was like my first year of shooting and my second big match. I did not understand what the RO meant by saying the activating had to be shoot first before engaging the clam shell. So I got to to the port, two As in the clam shell, then shot the popper. OOPS.