ErikW Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 You be the RO. A shooter got the load and make ready command. As he racked his slide, the gun broke and some broken Twinkie parts fell out the bottom of the mag well. He told you he couldn't continue, so you go through the unloading process. Do you.... a) record a time of 0.0 and score the targets record Did Not Fire on the scoresheet c) welcome him back for another try after he fixes his gun or goes through the channels for a replacement gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Gee Erik, I don't know the by the book legalistic answer but I know what I would do at a local match. I'd put his scoresheet at the bottom of the pile and loan the guy everything he needed (including the ammo) to shoot the course. I suppose the question is when does a course of fire commence. If the course commences at LAMR, well I suppose the break down would result in termination of the course of fire and a DNF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 well...let just see. say are you ready? gun breaks...gee sir, i'm not ready. may i please be excused? no dnf! lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I would hope (although I may be wrong) that the COF has begun at the signal (beeeeeeep!) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 So just when does the COF begin? Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" - This command signifies the start of "the course of fire". 5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. 5.7.3 In the event that a firearm malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor, the competitor shall point the firearm safely downrange and advise the Range Officer. The Range Officer shall terminate the course of fire in the normal manner. The course of fire shall be scored normally including all appropriate miss and failure to shoot at penalties. 5.7.5 Where the handgun has failed as above, the competitor shall not be permitted to re-shoot the course of fire. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire. So, According to 8.3.1 The COF has not begun yet because the start signal hasn't been given yet. Hence rules 5.7.1, 5.7.3 and 5.7.5 do not apply in this case. Otherwise the stage would have to be scored as if shot (5.7.3). And "DNF" does not exist anymore, but you knew that The shooter simply isn't ready (the cause being a broken gun in this case, but that's irrelevant). I would welcome him back after he has fixed his gun or borrowed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Arvid, Congratulations on quoting the correct rules and for reaching the correct conclusion. You only made one small error when you said: According to 8.3.1 The COF has not begun yet because the start signal hasn't been given yet. The COF actually starts with the LAMR command. The time starts with the Start Signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 So Vince, the answer is c? The "start signal" mentioned in 5.7.1 appears to be the start signal mentioned here (the audio, visual, or self-start, usually the beep), not the LAMR command: 8.3.1 “Load And Make Ready” • This command signifies the start of“the course of fire”. 8.3.4 “Start Signal” • The signal to begin the course of fire. Um, that's as clear as mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 It sounds like the shooter is screwed. If the COF begins at LAMR then his hammer snaps in two whilst dry-firing the gun,.....he done. Score the targets. That really sucks and needs to be changed. (if I'm reading this correctly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 TDean, you get to fix your problem and come back! Arvid,Congratulations on quoting the correct rules and for reaching the correct conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" - This command signifies the start of "the course of fire".5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. 5.7.3 In the event that a firearm malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor, the competitor shall point the firearm safely downrange and advise the Range Officer. The Range Officer shall terminate the course of fire in the normal manner. The course of fire shall be scored normally including all appropriate miss and failure to shoot at penalties. 5.7.5 Where the handgun has failed as above, the competitor shall not be permitted to re-shoot the course of fire. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire. So, According to 8.3.1 The COF has not begun yet because the start signal hasn't been given yet. Hence rules 5.7.1, 5.7.3 and 5.7.5 do not apply in this case. Otherwise the stage would have to be scored as if shot (5.7.3). And "DNF" does not exist anymore, but you knew that The shooter simply isn't ready (the cause being a broken gun in this case, but that's irrelevant). I would welcome him back after he has fixed his gun or borrowed something. but he wrote... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Shooter steps down, fixes problem and returns to shoot cof. I've done this on more than one occasion. 1 example: My dot wouldn't stay on so I unloaded, showed clear, went to safe area, fixed it and came back when I was prepared to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Tdean, the rule you sited says: 5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal,... A failure after the start of the COF, but before the start signal would seem to allow a competitor to get a second chance at the COF. Fix your holster, gun, change batteries, get your hearing or eye protection on, and come back when you are prepared. 5.7.1 et al applies after the beep . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 TDean, sorry, that's what vince wrote. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I saw something similar to this while working a stage at the Area 1 Championship in the PNW a couple years ago. Shooter gets the LAMR command....holsters the gun....Shooter Ready...Stand-By...... BEEP. Shooter draws...engages first target...gun goes "CLICK"....shooter racks slide...CLICK....again...CLICK. RO does the Unload and Show Clear.....go fix your gun. Shooter returns sometime later....Shooter Ready...Stand By.....CLICK....CLICK. Unload and Show clear...... RO contacts the RM on how to score it.....as Vince pointed out...stage starts on the LAMR command....shooter gets a time of zero....and a pile of penalty points. FOOTNOTE: I looked up the results from the match...they gave him a time of 1.00S and 400 penalty points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 LAMR is diffenent than the BEEP. Which one is the start of the stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 TDean, if give you the LAMR command and you see your sight is about to fall off, i will give the ULASC command. you will go fix your sight, then come back and start all over. now, if the same thing happens after i give you the "AYR? SB.."BEEP" you are out of luck. i think this is why the put the 'ARE YOU READY?' in the commands. Are You Read? no! i think my gun is broken. no! i'm not feeling well. no! i'm nervous. the "beep" is the key. once the time is started you're on your own. i hope this clears it up. lynn (i'm ready) jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Arvid,Congratulations on quoting the correct rules and for reaching the correct conclusion. You only made one small error when you said: According to 8.3.1 The COF has not begun yet because the start signal hasn't been given yet. The COF actually starts with the LAMR command. The time starts with the Start Signal. What about Vince saying the COF begins at the LAMR command? Again, these 3 rules are where it's at. 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" - This command signifies the start of "the course of fire". (if this is the start of the COF, which it seems to be, see rule 5.7.3) 5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. (this simply means you can clear a jam or other malf. during the COF) 5.7.3 In the event that a firearm malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor, the competitor shall point the firearm safely downrange and advise the Range Officer. The Range Officer shall terminate the course of fire in the normal manner. The course of fire shall be scored normally including all appropriate miss and failure to shoot at penalties. I agree that at Local matches, every "sane" person will allow the shooter to go fix his/her gun. But as it's written above, it looks as if the targets CAN be scored after the LAMR command. What am I missing here? Should I be more "intent of the rule" minded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 But as it's written above, it looks as if the targets CAN be scored after the LAMR command.But what are you going to use for a time? If the timer wasn't started, zero isn't even valid.(not that EZWinScore will accept a time value of zero anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 that's a loophole (or rather annoying lack of clarity) in the current rules that will be fixed in the new version, 9.10.3 "....will receive zero time and zero score...". The scoring programs will have to be modified to detect a zero time entry and then automatically assign a zero score. Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Hi guys, OK, here we go again. I always refer to the current IPSC rulebook (14th Edition - September 2002), but some of you refer to the USPSA 14th Edition 2001 (which is based on the older IPSC 14th Edition - September 2000) IPSC issued the "2002" version to correct quite a few anomalies in the "2000" edition, and one of the most important changes was to clarify when the COF begins. Unfortunately the USPSA did not keep up with IPSC. Here are the differences: IPSC "2000" Edition (USPSA "2001" Edition): 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" - This command signifies the start of "the course of fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor will face down range, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the stage briefing. The competitor shall then assume the required ready position. At this point, the Range Officer shall proceed. 8.3.4 “Start Signal” - The signal to begin the course of fire. IPSC "2002" Edition 8.3.1 Same as above 8.3.4 “Start Signal” - The signal to begin shooting. IPSC "2004" Edition 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed. 8.3.4 "Start Signal" – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?" Erik, To answer your question, yes, the correct answer is "C" in all of the above rulebooks. If a competitor's gun fails after LAMR but before the Start Signal, he should be allowed to retire, repair his gun (or avail himself of the provisions to use a substitute gun), then he can return to the COF to try again. However if, for argument's sake, a competitor drops his gun after the LAMR, then this is still a match DQ because the COF has begun. I hope this clarifies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Excellent, thank you. I am very happy with those improvements in the new IPSC rulebook(s) and I hope that USPSA adopts those changes as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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