Make-up Shots Shot Out Of The Designated Box

[twix]

T1-T4 are to be shot from box A only. You then ran past T1-T4 to engage the rest of the targets. Is it ok to make up for misses on T1-T4 as you move downrange (out of box A)?

I RO'd this one yesterday and flubbed it no matter the correct answer.

Tom Bergman

[ErikW]

T1-T4 are to be shot from box A only.

One procedural for shooting outside box A. One procedural per shot fired if the shooter was significantly closer or had a significantly better angle.

[Vince Pinto]

Tom,

Does this rule help?:

10.1.4.11 When Standards, Classifiers, Level I and Level II Matches restrict competitors by use of shooting boxes, a competitor who leaves a shooting box, may return to it and properly shoot at the targets, provided that they can do so safely and have not commenced firing from any subsequent position. However, if written stage briefings prohibit such actions, a procedural penalty per shot fired will apply.

If not, the correct answer depends on the written stage briefing. If it says "Shoot T1-T4 only from Box A", then the briefing should also state the penalty for non-compliance.

For example, if it's a safety issue (e.g. metal targets), you might get a DQ for shooting at the targets from outside Box A.

[PhilTerry]

I thought the DQ for engaging steel targets beyond a designated point had been dropped! If there is a safety issue a physical barrier is supposed to prevent encroachment?

[Wildman]

Let me see if I understand this right. I drop one of two shots on a nondisappearing paper target that is to be engaged from a box. At this time I am down 5 points not earned, and ten points for the miss. Total of 15 points down. If I move downrange and engage again from outside the box, and score an “A”, (which I couldn’t or didn’t do from the box), I earn 5 points and a ten point penalty to be down 5. And any extra time I needed to make the out of the box shot.

Is this right?

[wide45]

In most cases, correct. Please don't break the 180, or scare the RO.

[Vince Pinto]

Phil,

Forgive me, but I based my earlier reply on the next rulebook. I often have this problem because I always have three rulebooks in my head - the old one, the current one and, dammit, the next one - but I could've sworn we had this covered in the current rulebook.

Anyway, no, currently there's no penalty for shooting at metal targets from under a certain distance but, in the next rulebook, you'll get a match DQ for:

10.4.7 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 7 meters (22.96 feet), measured from the face of the target to the nearest part of the competitor's body in contact with the ground (see Rule 2.1.3).

-:and, FYI:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets are used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and match officials maintain a minimum distance of 7 meters (22.96 feet) from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with physical barriers. If Charge Lines are used to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least 8 meters (26.25 feet) from the targets so that the competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 7 meter (22.96 feet) minimum distance.

-:and, FYI:

2.2.1 Charge Lines and Fault Lines – Competitor movement should preferably be restricted through the use of physical barriers, however the use of Charge and Fault Lines is permitted. Charge Lines and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material and should rise at least 2 centimeters (0.79 inches) above ground level. This will provide both physical and visible references to competitors to prevent inadvertent faulting. Fault Lines and Charge Lines must be fixed firmly in place to ensure they remain consistent throughout the match.

2.2.1.1 Charge Lines are used to restrict unreasonable movement by competitors toward or away from targets.

2.2.1.2 Fault Lines are used to force the competitor to shoot at targets from behind physical barriers. They may be positioned at any angle extending to the rear of these barriers. Fault Lines should be a minimum of 1 meter (3.28 feet) in length and unless otherwise stated in the written stage briefing, they are deemed to extend rearwards to infinity.

Sorry for the confusion - I'll increase my medication .......

[rhino]

T1-T4 are to be shot from box A only. You then ran past T1-T4 to engage the rest of the targets. Is it ok to make up for misses on T1-T4 as you move downrange (out of box A)?

I RO'd this one yesterday and flubbed it no matter the correct answer.

Tom Bergman

Tom . . . if the walkthrough has been written as you state above, then I agree that there should be penalties for shooting the targets from outside of the box.

BUT . . . the actual walkthrough as read to my squad said to engage the T1 through T4 from box A . . . not box A only. And it was definitely a field course/long course. Specifics to standards and classifiers don't apply.

As it was read to my squad, as long as you engaged the targets with two rounds from Box A first, it doesn't matter what you did to them after that. There was competitive advantage gained either.

Course designers have to be careful about this sort of thing. If they really mean to shoot them from Box A and Box A only, they need to be very specific in the course description about where, when, and how any makeup shots may be accomplished without penalty. I'm sure you've shot stages where the description explicitly states where makeup shots may be made and where they may not.

[twix]

Thanks for the input.

[rhino]

. . . and I've learned that I was wrong!

Apparently the description did have that "only" word in it.

Maybe we need to get ROs to read the course description verbatim during the walkthrough!

[twix]

Ouch! Well I'm guilty there too. I let another shooter read the course description instead of doing it myself. And I obviously didn't listen well. And I even helped set up the stage. I just don't have an excuse. Sorry.

Tom B

[Garfield]

Maybe we need to get ROs to read the course description verbatim during the walkthrough!

Of course you are joking here ?

I mean, is that not standard practice currently ?

[rhino]

Maybe we need to get ROs to read the course description verbatim during the walkthrough!

Of course you are joking here ?

I mean, is that not standard practice currently ?

Well, it's supposed to be. And the ROs who have been to school (especially recently) typically do it.

But every once in a while (and I'm not talking about twix!), the RO will paraphrase the course description. I don't know why they do it, but sometimes they do.

I think we'll just issue a little reminder before the match next time.

[Garfield]

Here in NL it is a thing that is paid much attention to.

Being a novice RO (just took the course a few months ago) I noticed that this was specifically taught during the course and mentioned by the RM/CRO at every match I have RO-ed until now.

In fact, at most matches the RM tries to have the same RO brief the stage to all squads to even further avoid differences in the way a stage gets briefed.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Yes, written stage biefings must be read out verbatim to each and every squad, eventhough you may be able to recite it from memory. Also a copy of the briefing should also be posted at the stage, so that competitors can read it for themselves.

The other advice I'd like to give is that if a competitor tries to ask you a private question about the stage, do not answer him until you assemble the entire squad and your fellow ROs.

This way, everybody hears the same question and the same answer, and there is less chance of misunderstandings later.