Mark Bellon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I set up my (brand new) 550 for 9 mm and had no real (set up) issues; every piece of (raw) brass and finished round fit in the (9 mm) case gauge perfectly. I switched tool heads and started setting it up for .45. As I was setting up the crimp die I started checking things with my eyes, fingers and (finally) the case gauge. Every single test round - no powder or primers yet, just basic set up - will not fit in the .45 case gauge! I tried 20 test rounds (all 4 stages of the press) and every single one failed to fit in the case gauge. So then I check 20 (random) pieces of (raw) brass and they all fail to fit in the case gauge. I pull out the ultimate case gauge, my M&P .45, and all 40 pieces fit perfectly! Seems like Dillion Precision isn't, at least for this .45 case gauge. Has anyone heard of such a thing before? Guess I need to contact Dillon... mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 It's not unusual for rounds to fit your gun and not the case gauge. The case gauge is smaller than your gun. Check to ensure your sizeing die is set all the way down. If you have different brands of dies some resize farther down than others. I can almost gaurantee you your problem is setup. Check with calipers to find where your problem is. Your crimp die may not be set correctly. I will also garantee that Dillion's Precision is much more than yours at this point. Don't trash the product until you find the problem. Lest we end up with egg on our face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) I doubt your M&P has a match chamber, so throw that idea out. I'd guess you either have some bad brass or something isn't set up correctly. Is your sizer/decapping die screwed down far enough? Where are the loaded rounds stopping in the case gauge (base or bullet end)? What are you using for bullets? Edited February 26, 2009 by mscott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom S. Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 If you are saying they won't start into the guage, I suspect you are belling the case too much - or not crimping it back in enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Bellon Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I'm new to reloading so I'm all ears to learn. I'm using Dillion dies in a 550. Rainier 230 grain bullets. I created 20 rounds with the reloader AND selected 20 pieces of brass at random - none of them fit in the case gauge. I just tried another 20 pieces of randomly selected raw brass and ONE of them BARELY fits but it's so tight it's very, very hard to get out. With the one exception all of the brass - raw or through the reloader - jams in the case gauge, almost always at the 25% point but sometimes at the 50% point. The M&P .45 test passes them all. Since the raw brass - that's never touched the reloader - doesn't fit it appears to the be the problem. I dug out some new Blazer Brass plinking ammunition I had lying around and all of passes the case gauge test. I took the advise and used a caliper on the case gauge and check it against the specification found in the Speer #14 manual. Looks good. Then I calipered the brass. Every piece is out of round - at the point that it sticks - and several hundredths over specification. Looks like bad brass. Is there some magic - worthwhile - to put them into round? I'm going to call and have a talk with my source. This is once fired Winchester brass. I got some 9 mm from this source too and all of it is fine. Thanks, mark P.S. I wasn't trashing Dillion - great stuff. I did say "seems" and asked a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Mark, are you inserting the brass in the case gauge before you run it through the press? If this is the case then none will fit because the brass has been under pressure. When you run your test rounds are you going through all the dies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Try one right after it's sized.. make sure you're good there.. then start looking further.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Bellon Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 As I said I'm new to this. My comments and observations are from the perspective of learning. My (pre-fired) 9 mm brass fits the case gauge before and after it's been through the press. The .45 does not. I see the point about the .45 being pushed out a bit by the pressure - it's different than 9 mm - but always out of round? Not a mid case "belling"? I expect an occasional piece of brass that's been stepped on or damaged such that it isn't useful. I eyeball for those. I haven't found one (yet). Correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect anything in the loading process to alter the shape of brass throughout it's entire length. An out of round issue would be correct at the "top" due to the belling and crimping but I wouldn't expect that to extend throughout the length of the brass. I'm using Rainier bullets and so I'm not really crimping, just removing the belling. I'll take a much closer look at the base after the crimping stage. I double checked that I removed the belling - by feel and eye - but I'll caliper them for diameter. Perhaps I need to do a tiny bit of crimp? More later... Thanks! mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Why would care if the brass fits the case gage before resizing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect anything in the loading process to alter the shape of brass throughout it's entire length. An out of round issue would be correct at the "top" due to the belling and crimping but I wouldn't expect that to extend throughout the length of the brass. Mark.. I often see the bullet seating messing the rounds up. If the brass doesn't gauge after the sizing.. then stop there and change things.. then you at least know you're good there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 If the brass doesn't gauge after the sizing.. then stop there and change things.. then you at least know you're good there. Yea, if it won't gauge after going through the deprime/resize die, that die is most likely not set properly. Make sure you a piece of brass in all the stations, pull the handle and leave it down. CLOSELY inspect to make sure the sizing die is touching the shell plate/base. If it's not, adjust until it does. I've reloaded both 9mm and .45 brass that was way out of round from being stepped on and the resizing die makes it round again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Bellon Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Why did I try to gauge raw, spent brass? Because I was curious. When it fit in the gun and not the gauge I was curious and confused as to what was going on. I took some Blazar Brass that I just shot yesterday and tried it in the case gauge. It doesn't fit albeit it does go in further than the Winchester brass before it gets stuck. I did a few pieces of brass in the deprime/resize die and they still don't fit. Thanks! That's a good place to start. I'll report back when I see what I can find. Thanks! mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Please do. We're all rooting for you to figure it out. At the same time, it's worth bearing in mind, if the ammo works in the gun, feeds, chambers and extracts reliably, and is accurate, it's debatable how important "doesn't go all the way into the case gage" is. Frankly, I use the case gage primarily as a way to catch things like split casings, rather than as a way to catch severely oversized rounds. If a round won't go into the gage, I set it aside for later cycling through the action to make sure it chambers and extracts smoothly. Very, very rarely does a round that "fails" the case gage test fail the "gun" test, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 If the brass doesn't gauge after the sizing.. then stop there and change things.. then you at least know you're good there. Yea, if it won't gauge after going through the deprime/resize die, that die is most likely not set properly. Make sure you a piece of brass in all the stations, pull the handle and leave it down. CLOSELY inspect to make sure the sizing die is touching the shell plate/base. If it's not, adjust until it does. I've reloaded both 9mm and .45 brass that was way out of round from being stepped on and the resizing die makes it round again. +1 If a case isn't totally trashed running it through the resizing die should make it round. Mark, keep in mind that 9mm and .45acp are different in more than just diameter. 9mm is a tapered case and the chambers are cut for that. Because the mouth of the case/loaded round is smaller than the head, they don't have to cut the chamber nearly as much oversized at the chamber mouth to get reliable feeding. So, when those rounds are fired, the case doesn't expand as much to meet the chamber wall because they're a closer fit to start with. .45acp is a straight-walled case. Because of that they have to make the chamber mouth larger to promote reliable feeding. When the round goes off, the entire case is going to expand until it meets the chamber wall and it's going to expand somewhat more near the base/head than at the mouth. Make sure the seating die is touching the shell plate, run a couple of cases through just the resizing die and see if those will fit the case gauge. Loaded .45acp should measure something like .468-470 right at the case mouth....based upon measuring new factory and my handloads. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Bellon Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 WOO HOO! It was the deprimer/resize die. I worked on adjusting it until the rounds passed the case gauge test. It was not "low enough". Now that it is lowered every round comes out of the deprimer/resize die "picture perfect" - they drop into the case gauge with no force. I now see and understand how this stage can fix an out of round piece of brass. Much Thanks! No powder and primers yet - I understand those (did it fine with the 9 mm) - and I'll add them once I'm happy with everything else. The rounds coming out of the press now fit in the case gauge however they get a bit tight at the extraction groove - it doesn't just fall in. I can push the round in - it's a bit of a push - but it takes using a tool to get it back out (not too hard but it doesn't fall out). With my 9 mm the rounds fell in and fell out just like after the first stage. I did this experiment. I put in a piece of raw brass (didn't fit in the case gauge) and deprimed/resized it. Fits in the case gauge now. I bell it, skip the seating stage and do the crimping stage (no bullet). I get the result I stated above - it's not the seating stage or the bullet that causing it. Feed it to the depriming/resizing stage and it just drops in again. So the problem is in the powder/belling stage, the crimping stage or both. The seating stage produces round of the correct OAL so I know I have the correct - but it's not the problem. The belling is ever so slight, just enough to get the bullet to "stay". Any advise? I suspect it's not quite crimped enough yet - every so slight too much - so I'm going back to experiment more. Thanks! mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 It was the deprimer/resize die. I worked on adjusting it until the rounds passed the case gauge test. It was not "low enough". Now that it is lowered every round comes out of the deprimer/resize die "picture perfect" - they drop into the case gauge with no force. I now see and understand how this stage can fix an out of round piece of brass. Much Thanks!The rounds coming out of the press now fit in the case gauge however they get a bit tight at the extraction groove - it doesn't just fall in. I can push the round in - it's a bit of a push - but it takes using a tool to get it back out (not too hard but it doesn't fall out). With my 9 mm the rounds fell in and fell out just like after the first stage. There really isn't much to adjusting the resizing die. Loosen the die, lower the handle to raise the ram all the way up, screw the die down until it just ever so slightly kisses the shell holder...you can even back it off a sliver, but no more and then tighten the die. There's a good chance that'll get it to where the resized cases will drop all the way into the gauge without having to push them. Save yourself a little trouble and seat a bullet in an empty case, crimp it and then measure it. You'll waste a few bullets this way, but any adjustment you try without a bullet won't be quite right. Try to get .470 at the case mouth with a bullet in place and see if that drops right into the gauge. The good thing is that these will make excellent dummy rounds for when you want to practice reloads. You'll want the mag to weigh about what it does with live rounds and it won't beat up the follower which isn't designed to take empty reloads the way we practice them. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Bellon Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 WOO HOO! The last issue was that crimp was every so slight not taken off. Everything is now working exactly as it should and the rounds slip into - and out of - the case gauge as expected. Thanks again to everyone! mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Glad you got it all sorted out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 The rounds coming out of the press now fit in the case gauge however they get a bit tight at the extraction groove - it doesn't just fall in. I can push the round in - it's a bit of a push - but it takes using a tool to get it back out (not too hard but it doesn't fall out). With my 9 mm the rounds fell in and fell out just like after the first stage. As you said, getting rid of the last bit of belling is probably what got the cases to drop into the gauge that last little bit. However, if you have a case with a burr on the rim that won't allow it to drop into the die, pull the barrel from your gun some time and drop the case in. You'll see that the rim of the case is completely above the mouth of the chamber - it should still run through the gun fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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