Ron Ankeny Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I did a search and came up dry on this issue. I do the stats for our local club and from time to time Ill get an innacurate score sheet. For instance, I'll get a sheet where a no-shoot was hit but not recorded. I have been processing scores just as they appear on the sheet and the shooter just gets a gift if a hit no-shoot is not recorded. OK, so what do I do when only one hit is recorded for a target and no miss or penalty (FTE) is shown? I had a score from the last match where only one hit was recorded on a paper target so I gave the shooter the benefit and recorded two A zone hits. What is the correct way to handle this type of error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 In the US Rule 9.7.6.2 If insufficient hits or misses have been recorded on the score sheet, those which have been recorded will be deemed complete and conclusive. You can't add the A hit, or a miss. Enter only what you have on the score sheet. I have never used the scoring program. Can someone reveal how to get it to accept one hit on the target when it wants two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Ron, You need to smack you scorekeepers around a little. Make them tally all the A, B, C, D, & M's...then have them total those hits to ensure they add up to the required rounds. Let them know it needs done...they will be more than happy to do it. Other than that...you have to follow 9.7.5 > Then, as wide45 stated, it looks like 9.7.6.2 would fit. The way I read it, a no-penalty Mike would be recorded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Rule 9.7.6 covers all cases where a scoresheet is incorrect (a combination of hits/misses/time that can NOT have happened) AND the shooter is not available to reshoot the stage. Rule 9.7.5 says that if there are "insufficient or excess entries or if the time has not been recorded, the competitor will be required to re-shoot the course of fire." If there are too few hits/misses recorded then those that are recorded are deemed to be "complete and conclusive" (9.7.6.2). I take that to mean that the hits are complete and any missing shots must be recorded as misses. I do use the scoring program regularly and I'm fairly certain that it is not possible to make it accept fewer than the minimum total number of shots required for a stage. I also do the stats for our local club (and some of the bigger matches in the area). At the club matches I try very hard to get scores entered before anyone leaves so that 9.7.5 is in effect and if the scoresheet is not correct the shooter must re-shoot the stage. Notice also 9.7.4. I know that at most of our club matches we are lax about having RO's and competitors sign scoresheets. But I have no difficulty in expanding this rule to assume that we (scorekeepers) are not to second-guess scoresheets that have the appropriate number of shots and a time recorded. Unless the shooter approached me and said "I had a no-shoot on stage X that wasn't recorded" there is no way that I would change a score that was based on a complete scoresheet - even if the other 10 people on the squad said "There should be a no-shoot." I would tell the other 10 people on the squad that they should pitch in and help and make sure that the scoring was accurate. Then I would also unmercifully rib the guy that got away with the no-shoot for being lucky. But I would not change his official score. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Dang, Flex got in there while I was typing. I would really like to hear a ruling from on high (Darth, are you there?) regarding this issue. I would have recorded any shots not accounted for as "misses" (including the penalty(ies). My rationale for doing so (and not recording as no-penalty mikes) is that no-penalty mikes should also be recorded on the scoresheet. (Besides, very few stages actually have situations where no-penalty mikes can occur.) However, I don't think I've ever heard any clarification on this issue. Flex...Go ahead, smack around the scorekeepers. See if you ever win anything again. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Kelly, I don't see what ruling would be necessary, imho the rules are clear, as are the explanations given by yourself and the others in this thread ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Garfield, I had not considered recording/scoring the missing shots as "no-penalty mikes" as Flex suggested. My question then is "should the missing shots be recorded as misses (with penalties) or as no-penalty misses?" Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Ron & all, here you are a link to a thread I started some months ago on this forum, where the issue you raised has been discussed and approved by Darth. It is the only correct procedure, according to the rules, AFAIK. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Using EZWinScore, you can't just enter a non-penalty-miss unless the stage was set up with disappearing targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Flex...Go ahead, smack around the scorekeepers. See if you ever win anything again. LOL. I am pretty safe. I do the scores for one club. I help at another (plus they email me the data file to post on USPSA's site). At a third, they score me Major, when I shoot Minor...and they don't input all of my competition's stages. skywalker, I think that the EZWin Score that we use in the US makes the stats person account for all shots (can't score 21 if the stages calls for 22). erik, I checked, the No Penalty Mike (NPM) is always present as an option. (doesn't seem to matter if there is a disappearing target or not) jkmccoy, The way I am reading 9.7.6.2 (for, pretty much, the first time ) , you can't add a hit...and, you can't add a miss. The only other option is a no-penalty mike, right? EXAMPLE: If the stage description says: engage T1 with 6 rounds, Comstock. And, the score sheet comes to the stats shack with 5-Alpha recorded...and nothing else, then we score it 5-Alpha, 1-NPM. That is my read. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Flex, you are right, the link I posted was related to what we use here in Italy: we still rely on MSS 6.6b, because we feel it is more stable and user-friendly than WinMSS. Besides, our Statt Officers are really more experienced on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Hi guys, Rules 9.7.5 and 9.7.6 are indeed applicable, and the sequence of events is: 1. Reshoot. 2. If a reshoot is not possible, then you score on a WYSIWYG basis if shots are unrecorded (i.e. you don't "fill in the blanks" by guessing). 3. If excessive shots are recorded, the "benefit of doubt" goes to the competitor. 4. If the time has not been recorded, the competitor gets a zero for the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GvU Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 When first reading the original problem, I guest it would be arithmatics. How would the stats officer know there is a penalty? I assumed it would be on the scoresheet! (that is recorded!) In that case the arithmatics have not been properly done on the (stage)scoring. This can be corrected at stats. In case there is an incorrect number of hits, sure then the "reshoots" sections must be applied. However penalty targets and procedurals are not part of the required hits! Which then cannot be checked. If those are "missing" in the (signed) scoresheet there is no way (of knowing) to change the scoresheet and the "score stands". It does shows the necessity for the "writer" and "shooter" (in this order) to check the scoresheet before signing, for that all A, B, C, D, Mikes, procedurals and penalties (even extra shots) need to be added. Usually the scoresheets are all prepared for that. So make use of that. The stats officer should not need to do the adding up, there is enough work in putting in the scores. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 You need to smack you scorekeepers around a little. No, the competitor should be smacked around for signing an incomplete score sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 hi everyone, this is where peter cunningham's palm scoring system comes into play. first, you have to put in the time. the program will not let you pass without a time entered. second, each target as inputed from the stage walk through, will not let you continue without the proper number of hits entered. it's that simple! lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Lynn, Does that mean the scorer and the competitor's delegate cannot start scoring a long course of fire "in progress"? If so, this will actually slow down larger stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Lynn,Does that mean the scorer and the competitor's delegate cannot start scoring a long course of fire "in progress"? If so, this will actually slow down larger stages. By what...10 seconds (MAX)? Sure beats a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 vince, you put in a dummy time, to start the scoring, then correct it at the end... old way.. new way..peter has corrected the program so you can score first then put in the time. check out the palm scoring report of area 7 at http://www.boudrie.com/ lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Flex, Since we're talking about long courses, my guess is that starting scoring while a COF is "in progress" probably saves about 1 minute per competitor or up to 15 minutes per squad, and that's a lot, especially at major matches. Remember scoring "in progress" costs zero time, because it occurs concurrently with the shooting. And it's not just the shooting time for the COF (say 16 seconds for a 32 round course). It's the unloading processs, then the RO and competitor need to walk back to the start of the stage to start the scoring, and this all occurs in "real time", because it occurs after the shooting is over. Lynn, Put in a dummy time? Hell, every stage I shoot has a dummy time, and it's got nothing to do with a PDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Vince, That is the worst arguement I have ever heard from you. To be equally absurd...if you took an extra minute to shoot a 32 round course...I'd have to DQ you for unsportsman-like-conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 I think Vince has a point. The mere existence of a practice to "put in a dummy time" and the later adjustment of the program proves that there is a need to start scoring during the COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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