First shot good, second shot not so good

[No_Mikes]

I have been sporadically shooting USPSA matches on and off for a few years now. I love the shooting but with four kids and job that requires randomly scheduled hours it is hard for me to attend regularly. My questions is can anyone give me some pointers on how to improve getting my sight picture back after the first shot? I have the luxury of walking out my back door and shooting at paper. Up until now I have been shooting a single stack 45. A couple weeks ago I bought an SV limited gun in 40. I had the suggestion that the decrease in mag changes will help my times tremendously. The second area of trouble that I have is that dang second second shot. Does anyone have a suggestion on physical strength exercises, gun holding techniques, shooting exercises that will help me keep on target or get back on target more quickly? Thanks in advnace!

[Flexmoney]

Check out the shooting tips from Matt Burkett, especially the grip and stance: http://www.doublealpha.biz/tip_burkett.htm

What part of Ohio are you from?

[BBoyle]

Start doing some drills and always try and track the sight. Try to call your shots even when trying to shoot groups as well. It takes some time and effort but you will see it eventually.

As for the second shot......do not just pull the trigger a second time....wait for an acceptable sight picture!

It takes time and effort but you will get there.

[No_Mikes]

I live in Urbana. It is a small town between Dayton and Columbus. My brother shoots in Miamisburg and I have shot there many times but the drive is a killer just for 30 minutes on the range. It's about 1.25 - 1.5 hours each way. So when I go I want it to be worth my time. I am getting sick of hearing "alpha - charlie and alpha - delta" over and over. But I can shoot at paper in my backyard all day long. I have a natural 20 foot deep raven in my backyard and I live on 200 acres so their are no neighbors to complain. :-)

[No_Mikes]

Thanks for the link. I will check it out today.

Check out the shooting tips from Matt Burkett, especially the grip and stance: http://www.doublealpha.biz/tip_burkett.htm

What part of Ohio are you from?

[No_Mikes]

Start doing some drills and always try and track the sight. Try to call your shots even when trying to shoot groups as well. It takes some time and effort but you will see it eventually.

As for the second shot......do not just pull the trigger a second time....wait for an acceptable sight picture!

It takes time and effort but you will get there.

I tried waiting on the second shot at my last three gun match in Circleville and my target scores greatly improved. I shot one stage in particular where I shot all alphas with my rifle and single stack 45. My time SUCKED. Several other shooters told me to go faster. They said something about going fast enough where I only get 80% alphas. That this was the best blend of accuracy and speed in order to score the highest.

[Flexmoney]

My time SUCKED. Several other shooters told me to go faster. They said something about going fast enough where I only get 80% alphas. That this was the best blend of accuracy and speed in order to score the highest.

You got some of the worst "common advice" there is...but it sounds like you needed it.

Each shot you make is a separate shot. It doesn't matter if it is two on one target or not.

It sounds like you know how to hit the Alpha. But, you aren't always doing that because your are caught up in a speed focus. You don't need speed, you need efficiency (technique).

What you'll need to learn is how to get the gun (back) on target in an efficient manner. Burkett's tips will start you on that path.

[No_Mikes]

Thanks. I will definitely read those tips and try to practice them.

My time SUCKED. Several other shooters told me to go faster. They said something about going fast enough where I only get 80% alphas. That this was the best blend of accuracy and speed in order to score the highest.

You got some of the worst "common advice" there is...but it sounds like you needed it.

Each shot you make is a separate shot. It doesn't matter if it is two on one target or not.

It sounds like you know how to hit the Alpha. But, you aren't always doing that because your are caught up in a speed focus. You don't need speed, you need efficiency (technique).

What you'll need to learn is how to get the gun (back) on target in an efficient manner. Burkett's tips will start you on that path.

[Supermoto]

I have found when I try to force the gun back on target for he 2nd shot, it ends up taking longer and I get worse hit, The gun wants to come back to the same point, let it do it by itself and it will be faster and smoother.

I had an interesting match this weekend, all classifiers. I went in with the zero or hero mentality. I needed one 92% to move up.

First stage, I was slower by almost 2 secs then the last time I shot it and still had a NS. It was 3V, not a classfier that I wanted to start on, especially on a cold indoor match. All I knew was the time I wanted to shoot the stage in, I wasn't smooth, forced the speed, and was still slower

Stage 2 I changed my game plan... Shoot "A"s, be smooth, don't force speed. I got my 92%

Stage 3 and 4, know thinking I had made my goal, I pushed the speed aspect, tanked both of them. One, Nuevo El Prez, I had shot previously in the low 5s with poor points, instead of trying to get better hits, I went for more speed, end with a few NS and a blown reload.

What I learned is that if I just shoot the stage, with no expectations on speed and just shooting for points... I can do very well. If I try to force speed, I can not shoot fast enough to make up for the poor hit

Edited January 20, 2009 by Supermoto

[No_Mikes]

I have found when I try to force the gun back on target for he 2nd shot, it ends up taking longer and I get worse hit, The gun wants to come back to the same point, let it do it by itself and it will be faster and smoother.

I had an interesting match this weekend, all classifiers. I went in with the zero or hero mentality. I needed one 92% to move up.

First stage, I was slower by almost 2 secs then the last time I shot it and still had a NS. It was 3V, not a classfier that I wanted to start on, especially on a cold indoor match. All I knew was the time I wanted to shoot the stage in, I wasn't smooth, forced the speed, and was still slower

Stage 2 I changed my game plan... Shoot "A"s, be smooth, don't force speed. I got my 92%

Stage 3 and 4, know thinking I had made my goal, I pushed the speed aspect, tanked both of them. One, Nuevo El Prez, I had shot previously in the low 5s with poor points, instead of trying to get better hits, I went for more speed, end with a few NS and a blown reload.

What I learned is that if I just shoot the stage, with no expectations on speed and just shooting for points... I can do very well. If I try to force speed, I can not shoot fast enough to make up for the poor hit

That what I tried at my last shoot. I went for a fast pace but made sure I was on target on every shot and shot it clean. One of the other shooters that I normally shoot with even commented to me that it was one of the best stages he had every seen me shoot. I noticed one of my other friends shooting the same stage flew through the course and averaged around the 80% alpha mark. When the scores were posted his score blew mine away. I want to increase my scores but I want to do it the right way.

[Supermoto]

That what I tried at my last shoot. I went for a fast pace but made sure I was on target on every shot and shot it clean. One of the other shooters that I normally shoot with even commented to me that it was one of the best stages he had every seen me shoot. I noticed one of my other friends shooting the same stage flew through the course and averaged around the 80% alpha mark. When the scores were posted his score blew mine away. I want to increase my scores but I want to do it the right way.

80% Alphas is OK if the rest is charlies, Speed through a stage rarely comes from shooting fast, it comes from doing everything else fast, work on movement. its were the biggest gain in time are.

If you friend is shooting a stage some much faster, find where the differences are, them telling you to shoot faster is not how you are going to get faster. Effeciency in movement, being prepared to shoot as soon as you get to the location (port, box, etc) leave as soon as the shot breaks. have a good stage plan, move fast and smoothly

Shoot with an acceptable sight picture, see what you need to, to get the A, then move on, don't confirm your sight picture, see that its acceptable, break the shot.

[Tzygä]

What I learned is that if I just shoot the stage, with no expectations on speed and just shooting for points... I can do very well. If I try to force speed, I can not shoot fast enough to make up for the poor hit

+1

I don't worry times at all. I only try to make A shot all the time. When I do that my times will follow good perfonmance.

[open17]

Does the second shot go the same direction consistently?

[Duane Thomas]

Failure to keep the second shot on a double tap in with the first shot is often a failure of trigger control, i.e. the shooter puts WAY too much energy into pulling the trigger the second time. Granted, there's a LOT that goes into getting the gun tracking right back to the same spot every time - stance, grip, etc. But having said that, I'll still say that the most common cause is poor trigger control.

Focus on hitting the trigger reset in dry fire, prepping the trigger, then applying only the amount of energy necessary - that last half pound of pressure - to fire the gun. On the range, practice firing the shot, then holding the trigger to the rear while you watch the sights return. Then, SLOWLY, let the trigger out until you hit the reset, then prep the trigger, then break the shot. Do that, over and over again until you've gotten it into your muscle memory where the reset point is, what it feels like to hit it, and how hard you can prep the trigger without actually firing the gun.

Then progress to making the interval you hold the trigger to the rear shorter. Then shorter still. The eventual goal being to get to the point that you reset the trigger and prep it while the gun is still in recoil, and you apply the last little bit of pressure to fire the gun right as it comes down to the same spot. Once that happens, you can begin firing the gun as fast as it comes down out of recoil, and still be accurate.

Hope that helped.

[Allgoodhits]

.... The second area of trouble that I have is that dang second second shot. Does anyone have a suggestion...

Shoot the first shot twice! Seriously, all the principles, fundamentals which made the first shot an ALPHA will also make the second shot an ALPHA if you slow down and either make it happen, or pause until it happens. The second shot should be easier. The gun is already in your hand and you should be pretty much on target.

Put another way. Given pouring rain and locked car at distance. It doesn't matter how fast a runner you are. If you don't slow down enough to put the key in the lock, and turn the knob, you'll still get just as wet as the slower runners! Slow down, hit the key hole the first attempt.

MJ

[No_Mikes]

Failure to keep the second shot on a double tap in with the first shot is often a failure of trigger control, i.e. the shooter puts WAY too much energy into pulling the trigger the second time. Granted, there's a LOT that goes into getting the gun tracking right back to the same spot every time - stance, grip, etc. But having said that, I'll still say that the most common cause is poor trigger control.

Focus on hitting the trigger reset in dry fire, prepping the trigger, then applying only the amount of energy necessary - that last half pound of pressure - to fire the gun. On the range, practice firing the shot, then holding the trigger to the rear while you watch the sights return. Then, SLOWLY, let the trigger out until you hit the reset, then prep the trigger, then break the shot. Do that, over and over again until you've gotten it into your muscle memory where the reset point is, what it feels like to hit it, and how hard you can prep the trigger without actually firing the gun.

Then progress to making the interval you hold the trigger to the rear shorter. Then shorter still. The eventual goal being to get to the point that you reset the trigger and prep it while the gun is still in recoil, and you apply the last little bit of pressure to fire the gun right as it comes down to the same spot. Once that happens, you can begin firing the gun as fast as it comes down out of recoil, and still be accurate.

Hope that helped.

Thanks for your comments on trigger control. Never would have thought about that. Thinking now about how I shoot during a match I just pulled the trigger and the gun goes bang. Granted my prevous gun was a factory Kimber so the trigger was crisp but not light. It took a little pressure. My new gun has a 2.5 lb trigger but I haven't gotten a chance to shoot it yet. I am getting ready to reload some and I will definitely try what you wrote.

[benos]

For quick consistent follow up shots, proper technique is key.

Grip your pistol with a firm, even, neutral grip - no pushing or pulling with either hand - and comfortably stick it out in front of your face, confirm perfect sight alignment, then just release the hammer with a nice easy pull on the trigger, the sights will recoil up and right back down to where they were.

And for a fun diversion, try this. Grip your pistol with a firm, even, neutral grip - no pushing or pulling with either hand - and comfortably stick it out in front of your face, confirm perfect sight alignment - then close your eyes - then release the hammer with a nice easy pull on the trigger - then open your eyes, and note the sight alignment. Then repeat until the sights return perfectly aligned every time.

be

[Duane Thomas]

WOW. Reading that was a lights on moment.

[Duane Thomas]

Seriously, all the principles, fundamentals which made the first shot an ALPHA will also make the second shot an ALPHA if you slow down and either make it happen, or pause until it happens.

I'm not convinced that's true, frankly. All that approach will accomplish is to give the shooter an either/or attitude toward speed and accuracy. Typically, shooters believe they only have two choices: (1) they can be fast and inaccurate, (2) they can be slow and accurate. However, those aren't the only two choices. Actually, you have FOUR choices: (1) you can be fast but inaccurate, (2) you can be slow and accurate, (3) you can be slow and inaccurate, (4) you can be fast and accurate. Obviously, of all your choices, the best is (4). Saying to yourself, though, "I need to slow down and be accurate" is NOT the approach that is ever going to get you to (4).

[HSMITH]

Shooting fast is a waste of time, energy, money, points and everything else. It is a loser every time. The guys that are killing you with faster times are doing everything else faster like movement, transitions, reloads, etc. It has been demonstrated to me on a 32 round field course that I am able to shoot each target with a faster split than a world class GM (actually it was two world class GM's) and they beat me by 30%+. I am not capable of fast splits at all either, a .20 split for me is REALLY fast. Doing everything other than the actual shooting precisely at the highest speed you are capable of gives you all the time in the world to shoot points, and do it in a much faster overall time which will increase your hit factors dramatically. When it is demonstrated to you the way it was demonstrated to me you will probably slap yourself in the forehead and wonder what you were ever thinking too...

[G-ManBart]

Something to try when you have a little time is to shoot three shots rather than two. Very frequently the second one is going to be another A and the third one now is the problem child. Many people stop calling the shot about the time they start the trigger press on the second shot. They're essentially quitting on the shot before it's gone. This happens because they've programmed themselves to shoot two shots per target, rather than calling two hits per target.

Do some three-shot drills and then some two shot drills with a third clear, crisp, perfect sight picture but don't break the shot (if you do by accident it's not a big deal).

Take some time and shoot into the backstop with no target. Track the front sight as it moves and just try to see it clearly when you break each shot.

[Duane Thomas]

Shooting fast is a waste of time, energy, money, points and everything else. It is a loser every time.

It's always struck me that whenever you say to yourself, "A is more important than B, so I won't worry about B," you pretty much condemn yourself to lose to people who can do A and B. I mean, I get what you're saying, but what we're talking about here is how to have speed and accuracy. That's never going to happen if you can't push the speed. You have to be able to become comfortable shooting faster than you can hit; if you never shoot at a speed faster than you can hit, you're never going to become able to hit faster than your current speed. How can you ever learn to hit at a speed at which you never shoot?

[Tzygä]

Great advises Duane Thomas, benos, HSMITH and G-ManBart.

Reading these were a lighting moment for me too.

Thanks!

[Allgoodhits]

Seriously, all the principles, fundamentals which made the first shot an ALPHA will also make the second shot an ALPHA if you slow down and either make it happen, or pause until it happens.

I'm not convinced that's true, frankly. All that approach will accomplish is to give the shooter an either/or attitude toward speed and accuracy. Typically, shooters believe they only have two choices: (1) they can be fast and inaccurate, (2) they can be slow and accurate. However, those aren't the only two choices. Actually, you have FOUR choices: (1) you can be fast but inaccurate, (2) you can be slow and accurate, (3) you can be slow and inaccurate, (4) you can be fast and accurate. Obviously, of all your choices, the best is (4). Saying to yourself, though, "I need to slow down and be accurate" is NOT the approach that is ever going to get you to (4).

The poster's problem as mentioned is not accuracy, his problem is not speed. His problem was specifically the second shots not being as accurate as the first. Therefore, he knows what to do to deliver an ALPHA. He wasn't asking for greater speed. He wanted feedback on why the second shot is not as good as the first. My comment was to slow down AND make it happen, or pause until it happens. Much more than "just" slowing down. I think your comments are valid, but they are not what I was reading as his question or concern. Perhaps I misread what he was stating.

Based on the information provided, it appears that he is NOT applying the same fundamentals for the subsequent shots as he does for his first shots. Likely because he is rushing the shot in some manner. This could be causing the gun to fire before the gun or sights are properly aligned in the aiming area, or that the grip has changed from the time the first shot was fired, or he is a tad anxious on the trigger. Another possibility is that he is not practiceing follow through on the second shot. He may already be thinking about the transition to the next target. yet another example of the need to slow down, pause. Shoot the shot your shooting.

Regardless of the problem, the problem must get corrected before the subsequent shots are fired, or the subsequent shots will likely not be as good as the first shot. This then requires him to slow down in order to repeat those steps which enabled the first shot to be an ALPHA until such time that things get right in order to correct whatever the problem was which is causing the poor subsequent shots.

(5) Sometimes one gets Lucky too.

MJ

Edited January 21, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[HSMITH]

Shooting fast is a waste of time, energy, money, points and everything else. It is a loser every time.

It's always struck me that whenever you say to yourself, "A is more important than B, so I won't worry about B," you pretty much condemn yourself to lose to people who can do A and B. I mean, I get what you're saying, but what we're talking about here is how to have speed and accuracy. That's never going to happen if you can't push the speed. You have to be able to become comfortable shooting faster than you can hit; if you never shoot at a speed faster than you can hit, you're never going to become able to hit faster than your current speed. How can you ever learn to hit at a speed at which you never shoot?

True, but I think you get past this pretty quickly at most match distances, and the push out of our own comfort zones is for ultimate speed in everything BUT the shooting. If you can shoot 25's and shoot A's you can shoot fast enough to win the Nationals in the iron sight divisions, even most B class shooters CAN shoot 25's accurately if they would just let it happen....