To DQ or not to DQ

[ima45dv8]

I don't know where you were at Bobby, but you damn sure know that on our squad yesterday none of that crap would have been tolerated. We had a couple of stages with 180 possibilities and a backup stage. Even with one brand new shooter no one commited any safety violations. Since I do a lot of shooting with 45DV8 rules are frequently discussed. The rules apply to everybody.

Boz, had IMA45DV8 been there, I wouldn't have been running the timer anyway.

I don't see why not. You're trying to learn how this all works and you're helping the squad get through the match. Running shooters is scary at first but that's how we learn.

At 2 of the local clubs I shoot at regularly I do run the timer a bit, but I have been shooting with those guys since I began, and they have watched me grow and learn the rules, and they know I am watching everything. They are comfortable with me running them. Being the new guy isn't always easy.

No it isn't. But I've seen you go ask for help with calls when running the timer and that's a great solution when you get stuck on something. If you don't know how to handle a particular instance, ask someone who can help. That's the best we can do. The local Level I scene is a training ground for RO's as long as there's people who can and will help guide you. I've met very few people in this sport who wouldn't assist in those situations.

Now, there a very few more-experienced shooters who will test you. A couple of them can smell fear or uncertainty at 20 paces and will try their best to bluff or bully you into something that benefits them. Not saying that's the case here, but it will likely happen to you at some point. Go with what the rulebook says (don't be afraid or embarrassed to pull it out right then and there if you need to) and ask for help when you need it. If you ever have a question and I'm around you know you're always welcome to ask for my help.

[kgunz11]

I do keep a copy of the rule book in my range bag (as does Susan, she is contemplating taking the RO class at Fernadina that I cannot attend because of the Max/Travis class). I knew what the call was for the hard cover target, but I wasn't the RO so I had no grounds to enforce the call. The person claiming to be the RO wasn't even holding the timer, so in essence he was no more of an RO than any of us spectators. He said he didn't see the bullet strike the barricade, even though the wood and jacket fragments tore several holes in the paper. I don't mind giving the shot to the shooter, not at all, I DO mind the way the guy handled it. The shooter did not get involved what so ever in the debate.

I am trying to learn. And being around you and shooting with you a few times has taught me volumes. It's one thing to read it in the book, it's another to have it in a practical example in front of your eyes. You have done well Obi Wan with what I have picked up so far.

[XD Niner]

I’m going to jump in here since I was the one who invited kgunz to shoot and was on his squad. I am certainly glad he and the other three shooters in his party came and participated. There were some good stages and I for one had a fun time at the match. I hope all return for a future match.

I was the scorer in the first incident (bullet through edge of plywood hard cover) and while I wasn’t for the second incident I did see the latter portion of that situation. I am a currentlycertified RO. I should have asked kgunz if he was but failed to do so and for that I was remiss and am sorry.

In the first incident (round through the edge of the barricade) I called the RO’s attention to it. Yes, this was the grandson although he was working under the close supervision of the grandfather who was in reality the RO. The grandfather is an experienced shooter and I thought he was a certified RO but it appears that his certification may have lapsed. The grandfather had stated that he wanted the young man to run the shooter and timer to become more involved in the sport. He did so with one of our most experienced shooters who was fully aware of the situation and actually helped coach the young man through the proper commands. Was this the best thing to do? Perhaps not but there were (I thought) two certified ROs following the young man and keeping an eye on him. I thought he did a pretty good job for his first time although he lacked the “authority” that a more experienced RO would exhibit. I suspect most of us were that way our first time running a shooter.

As for the scoring question, in my opinion while the majority of the bullet impacted the edge of the plywood barricade it looked like the right hand edge of the round did not. This situation is covered by rule 9.1.6.3:

“If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike the scoring area of a paper target, the hit on that paper target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.”

There was an elongated (due to tumbling bullet) hole in the target beyond the plywood that was wholly contained in the lower A zone. There did not appear to be a full diameter hole in the plywood barricade but it could have been that the very right edge near the bullet hole splintered away. I called the "RO" (grandson) over to make the call more so that he could learn than to make the actual call which was actually made by the grandfather. Because of the nearness to the edge this could possibly have been ruled either way but I believe the correct call was made.

As for the grandfather’s reaction, he did not handle the situation well. A competitor who is not the shooter (or the shooter’s designee) or scorer should not be contesting an RO’s scoring call one way or the other. However, the grandfather’s means of expressing that he was the RO and was in charge of the stage and scoring was not appropriate. I believe he was actually kidding but if you didn’t know him and his sense of humor you might not realize it. Regardless it was a bad approach.

As for the second incident (the table start) the stage design actually came from the 2008 World Shoot. The start position including the approximately 70 to 75 degree angle from the centerline of the bay (line perpendicular to the 180) was reproduced per the stage diagram. The first two doubled top/bottom targets most competitors would choose to shoot were directly in line with the shooter’s eyes when seated behind the table. This stage was located the rifle bay and the table was at least 50 yards from the parking area which was up range and parallel to the 180 in that bay. All observers were well up range of the start position and shooting area. As kgunz stated no one was in a location where they would have been in danger and certainly not in front of a line that ran through the shooter’s shoulders at the start position.

I RO’d many of the shooters on this stage. Of the shooters I ran, most loaded their guns while pointed more directly down range although a few were facing more towards the first array. I didn’t notice anyone breaking the 180 while loading or placing their loaded guns on the table and I was looking closely while I was RO’ing.

Unfortunately, the shooter in question is a lefty. I did not witness him make ready and set his gun down the first time but when I did see the gun on the table it looked as if it broke the 180 by quite a bit. My vantage angle was not good and I was fairly distant from the table. He did eventually reposition it yet it still appeared to be right on the 180 if it wasn’t violating it. I did not hear any of the verbal exchange between RO and shooter so I can’t comment on the shooter’s attitude. I believe that the competitor should have been DQ’d under Rule 10.5.2,

“If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop.”

I have shot at this club for several years and it has a good safety record and attitude. We had three DQ’s the previous month on that same bay for other reasons. I was the RO for one of those with the other two were under different RO’s. We did so because safety rules were clearly broken even though one competitor protested vehemently. I continue to shoot there in large part because it is a safety conscious group.

Edited January 20, 2009 by XD Niner

[kgunz11]

XD, I had a good time, don't get me wrong. A day spent shooting is always a good day for me. I left the club name out and everyone else involved because I didn't want to implicate my experience was normal for that club. I also mentioned they have a large turnout for this area which regularly tops 70+ shooters. The offending shooter on the stage with the table start said he was right handed. I asked him that question when he was huffing and puffing about having to move his gun. He said he oriented it that way because of the over sized mag release. The more experienced score keeper told him he couldn't start that way and asked him to move the gun. I thought the guy should have been DQ'd, but he was allowed to shoot. I should have made the DQ call, and I didn't. It's bothered me since, and that was the reason for this thread.

I didn't mean this thread to reflect in any way towards the club or participants as a whole. The gentleman that was ugly to me apologized twice and due to the nature of his apology, I don't think he was joking when he said what he said.

Either way, I had a good time, and if I were in the area during a match I would consider coming back, if for nothing more than just to hang out with you and Nemo.

[XD Niner]

The offending shooter on the stage with the table start said he was right handed. I asked him that question when he was huffing and puffing about having to move his gun. He said he oriented it that way because of the over sized mag release.

I stand corrected. That just proves how poor my vantage position was. I had thought he was our lefty. As a righty I can't imagine why he would position his gun like that.

And please do come back when you have a chance. We'll keep a spot on the squad list warm for all of you "Northerners" from Georgia.

[kgunz11]

Thanks for your hospitality. You were a gracious host and we appreciate you saving a spot on the squad for us. Although I got slightly barked at for putting our names on the X's. I explained and it was all good.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

My .02. When you are on the timer, you are like a soldier or marine on guard, "you have no friends", you take nothing for granted. In other words, you make the call!!

I have tried to follow this philosophy as an RO and some folks will say that I am a "hard" RO. Thems the breaks. You call them as you see them and you give everyone the same call. Do that and you will never go wrong. FWIW.

[JKSNIPER]

+1 to Bwana.

Also I'm not a rule book expert but isn't there a rule dealing with inappropriate behavior from a competitor towards an R.O.?

Its one thing to tell an RO you think hes making a bad call and you want to protest it.....its totally different for someone to tell you to "get the fudge off his range."

Dude you're a MUCH nicer guy than me because I'd of went directly to the M.D. and told him either that guy is leaving or I am.

You're a good guy for getting involved and trying your best.

JK

[JasonC]

Since we handle guns so often, I think we tend to become very casual in our gun handling. All the stuff we argue about at a match, shooting through barricades, perfect doubles, foot faults, popper calibration, etc, etc will not injure or kill anyone. Breaking the 180 and popping off a round could. The consequences are so severe that it is absolutely not acceptable to break the 180, ever. Stand your ground. DQ. Go home. Come back next week.

[Nik Habicht]

Since we handle guns so often, I think we tend to become very casual in our gun handling.

I disagree completely --- I think the exact opposite is true. Because we handle guns so often, and in such diverse situations, I think most competitive shooters gunhandling is pretty well thought out.....

[XRe]

Since we handle guns so often, I think we tend to become very casual in our gun handling.

I disagree completely --- I think the exact opposite is true. Because we handle guns so often, and in such diverse situations, I think most competitive shooters gunhandling is pretty well thought out.....

+1 to that, Nik. I find gun handling habits to be far more lax among those who don't handle them often or in organized situations like ours. If you find your gun handling to become "casual", because you're taking for granted the inherent danger in a firearm, you might want to back off and rethink things before you hit the range again

[boz1911]

Since we handle guns so often, I think we tend to become very casual in our gun handling.

I disagree completely --- I think the exact opposite is true. Because we handle guns so often, and in such diverse situations, I think most competitive shooters gunhandling is pretty well thought out.....

+1 to that, Nik. I find gun handling habits to be far more lax among those who don't handle them often or in organized situations like ours. If you find your gun handling to become "casual", because you're taking for granted the inherent danger in a firearm, you might want to back off and rethink things before you hit the range again

Wholeheartedly agree, even on my own property where it would be almost impossible for bullet to leave the area, safe gun handling is always required. The only exception is holstering a "hot" safe weapon.

[kgunz11]

Since we handle guns so often, I think we tend to become very casual in our gun handling.

I disagree completely --- I think the exact opposite is true. Because we handle guns so often, and in such diverse situations, I think most competitive shooters gunhandling is pretty well thought out.....

+1 to that, Nik. I find gun handling habits to be far more lax among those who don't handle them often or in organized situations like ours. If you find your gun handling to become "casual", because you're taking for granted the inherent danger in a firearm, you might want to back off and rethink things before you hit the range again

Wholeheartedly agree, even on my own property where it would be almost impossible for bullet to leave the area, safe gun handling is always required. The only exception is holstering a "hot" safe weapon.

Is holstering a "hot safe weapon" not also safe gun handling? I think if done correctly it is, so it wouldn't really be an exception.

[Flexmoney]

Since we handle guns so often, I think we tend to become very casual in our gun handling.

I disagree completely --- I think the exact opposite is true. Because we handle guns so often, and in such diverse situations, I think most competitive shooters gunhandling is pretty well thought out.....

Hmmmm....

I'm not sure that the amount of gun handling has much to do with it one way or the other.

Boz hits on the key, in my opinion...

.. safe gun handling is always required