JThompson Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) I've also seen pasters cast a shadow and appear like a hole. Hell, what about when someone gets sloppy and half-pastes a hole? Is that half a REF? How much of a partial hole is required to have a REF? What if the hole was pasted, but the paster has come slightly loose and is blowing in the wind, sometimes exposing the hole and other times not? Let me see... Well I guess I would have to rule the bugs as "act of God." No Reshoot The others we just grant reshoots. I'm sure I can find a paster not applied correctly, a partial hole I found distrating. That way whenever I have a bad run I can reshoot if I choose. EDIT Hoofy, we aren't digging on you here... you did the right thing as you saw it and then brought it here and sent it to John... What more can a CRO/RM do than that? I commend you... you are the type of CRO/RM I want on the range. Edited January 20, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoofy Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 EDIT Hoofy, we aren't digging on you here... you did the right thing as you saw it and then brought it here and sent it to John... What more can a CRO do than that? I commend you... you are the type of CRO I want on the range. Thanks. I figure we are all here to learn and get better. At shooting, RO'ing, and running matches. If I can learn from my mistakes, maybe others can too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Thanks.I figure we are all here to learn and get better. At shooting, RO'ing, and running matches. If I can learn from my mistakes, maybe others can too. And that is the most valuable aspect of these discussions. Not only for those directly involved in these events, but for everyone else who reads silently and absorbs the information. Even those who earnestly disagree can now see the light and rule in accordance with that cold, unfeeling rulebook instead of the warmth and kindness in their hearts. <feeling inspired by oratory today> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I can't look myself in the mirror and call it your way. ... If we don't have a rulebook that allows them to reshoot, then I don't wanna play. ... It's the right thing to do. Oh joy... The implied "if you don't do it my way, then you're out to screw the shooter" ad hominem, followed up with the old "my way or the highway, I'll take my ball and go home" stance. Very nice. I don't think I "implied" anything. I stated it in a rather matter-of-fact manner. I'm not going to screw the shooter..for a blown run..for my failure to ensure that the stage was properly reset. I am pulling my supporting rules form the section of the rule book that are appropriate. Not the (after the fact) scoring section. I am treating the shooter fairly, and I am treating the other competitors in the match fairly. As Duane E. said...I haven't seen anything yet that would cause me to change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Thanks.I figure we are all here to learn and get better. At shooting, RO'ing, and running matches. If I can learn from my mistakes, maybe others can too. And that is the most valuable aspect of these discussions. Not only for those directly involved in these events, but for everyone else who reads silently and absorbs the information. Even those who earnestly disagree can now see the light and rule in accordance with that cold, unfeeling rulebook instead of the warmth and kindness in their hearts. <feeling inspired by oratory today> 5 demerits. Edited January 20, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 5 demerits. Hold on, there. I was a victim of the situation. I didn't get an equal opportunity to come to my senses. I demand a reshoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 5 demerits. Hold on, there. I was a victim of the situation. I didn't get an equal opportunity to come to my senses. I demand a reshoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I can't look myself in the mirror and call it your way. ... If we don't have a rulebook that allows them to reshoot, then I don't wanna play. ... It's the right thing to do. Oh joy... The implied "if you don't do it my way, then you're out to screw the shooter" ad hominem, followed up with the old "my way or the highway, I'll take my ball and go home" stance. Very nice. I don't think I "implied" anything. I stated it in a rather matter-of-fact manner. I'm not going to screw the shooter..for a blown run..for my failure to ensure that the stage was properly reset. I am pulling my supporting rules form the section of the rule book that are appropriate. Not the (after the fact) scoring section. I am treating the shooter fairly, and I am treating the other competitors in the match fairly. As Duane E. said...I haven't seen anything yet that would cause me to change my mind. So how do we insure equality across the country with the rules if everyone wants to interpret them differently? The director of the NROI has ruled on this, and will hopefully do so officially so everyone gets treated equally. If JA does rule it is not a re-shoot... what will you do then Flex? Visually make sure the targets are pasted before starting the next shooter? Shouldn't the RO be doing that anyway? So if you walk through and visually confirm the targets are all pasted and the wind blows a black paster off the painted portion of a target thus creating a hole during a shooters run, or say his comp gas knocks it off... then how would you go about it? I pose these questions because I want to learn the rules in an ethical and enforceable manner. At this point, a shooter can be given a re-shoot based on the argument, or be denied a re-shoot, based on the other argument. I want to make sure everyone is treated fairly if I am running the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 If JA does rule it is not a re-shoot... what will you do then Flex? If he's not a hypocrite, he'll quit the game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 If JA does rule it is not a re-shoot... what will you do then Flex? John doesn't "rule". He gives his opinion. His opinion cab be (and has been) as right or wrong as anybody else's opinion. Sit around the table with experienced major match staff and you will hear a variety of opinions on how a call should go. I stated, in a previous post, what it will take for me to call this differently: ... that is how I have, and will, call it. Nothing short of a BOD ruling or rulebook change is going to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I think Kyle is aiming for a ten-pound rulebook. I'm aiming for a BOD ruling to have him pay the postage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I guess I was asking what you (Flex) would do if JA sent in a request to the BoD and his opinion then became a ruling. I realize at this point it is just an opinion, but he has the ability to make it official. What happens if the BoD agrees with his assessment? What then? Either way it needs to be universal for the sport to be fair and equal to all. I know the guys I shoot with wouldn't allow me to re-shoot the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I think Kyle is aiming for a ten-pound rulebook.I'm aiming for a BOD ruling to have him pay the postage. I'll take a ten pound rulebook over the "I've got a letter from The King" system any day. I do not think we need a 10lb rulebook just a concisely written one. Flex's mileage may vary. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Bobby, I've answered that earlier. I've quoted my answer to that to you (directly) again. How many time would you like me to say it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I think Kyle is aiming for a ten-pound rulebook. George, because I don't agree with your take on it does that mean I want a 10lb rule book? I know you can't think the rule book is perfect? The last update had (at least): - 6 deletions - 48 additions - 64 amendments - plus a few misc. items I doubt we are batting 1,000 with this one version. It seems clear that experienced minds see this differently. That is what started the thread and that is what has taken it multiple pages...and that is just here on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Bobby,I've answered that earlier. I've quoted my answer to that to you (directly) again. How many time would you like me to say it? Just one time, so that it is clear and concise, as the rule book should be. You only told me JA's opinion doesn't mean much to you. I guess it doesn't really matter to me what YOU will rule, you just seem to be a man of principle and your opinion is valued by many here, including me. I do not remember reading anything else other than you would quit shooting because you didn't agree with the call if you were wrong on it. For someone with your experience and knowledge, the sport would suffer potentially 2 losses at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 No, Kyle, I don't think it's perfect. Matter of fact, I don't think it is possible to ever reach perfection. Trust me, I know how the process works and its major impediments. What bothers me is that the interpretation of this scenario did not change with this new rulebook. 9.1.4 is the same as greenbook US9.1.4 (except for the B/C sentence which does not apply here). Similarly, although the wording is slightly different, 4.6.1 is essentially the same. If you note the exact changes, it should be obvious that REF for unpasted targets is not mentioned. It easily could have been, so it seems to me that this is a deliberate exclusion. Displacement of paper targets is mentioned because that would be inequitable. I am not going back to even earlier rulebooks, so let's at least admit that those rules have not changed (in the context of this scenario) in at least five years. In all that time, I have never seen a reshoot assigned for unpasted targets at a major match, at least not without some other overriding issue. In all that time, it has been common knowledge that the shooter stops himself at his own risk. In all that time, that is what is taught in the RO Seminar. And yes, I have myself paused when seeing holes in a target, but I've continued anyway. You, of all people, who repeatedly beats the "what the rules say" drum, are making a mountain out of a molehill. "Gelderfarb!", I say. It just appears you are being so single-minded that you refuse to consider the various very rational viewpoints which have been offered. You even refuse to accept JA's opinion, insisting on an uber-official supreme court ruling over something that has been in place for years. Your choice, but at least be consistent in how you proclaim your respect for the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Take a breath fellas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I agree.... what more is there to say? I'd close it up and call it day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Yeah, close it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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