38 Short Colt

[41mag]

Just playing with some components I have laying around.

I first worked up to 4grs of Titegroup under the Ranier 124 gr rn. This almost made minor from a 4" (like 124 pf). They chronoed real nice.

At 50yds from a make shift rest on a table top I shot 15 rounds. There was no sign of key holing but the group wasn't pretty. Not counting one flier the vertical spread was just OK at about 4 to 5" but the horizontal spread opened the group up to about 12".

Next I continued with the Titegroup in the measure and worked up to 5grs under the Berry 100gr hbrn. It made power factor easy at 128pf out of the same 4" gun.

Again at the 50yd mark I shot 15 rounds at the same (pasted) target used above. The group was almost identical including the low flier but added one more flier that was high.

These bullets are both .355" dia.

I will try them at 25 or 30 yards to see what kind of groups they will give.

Any chance or reason they should shoot better out of the 627 PC gun? I was surprised to see the cylinder is 60 thou shorter on the N frame then the L frame 4".

I also ordered some 158gr rn Bullet Works .357" that I will try soon.

On another note I loaded those 124's in 38 spl cases the other day and test fired like above and the groups were a lot nicer, circular pattern of 6 to 7". Bullet jump you think? Or the difference in crimp? Or powder maybe? Those were shot with Clays from the powder measure that was still set for my 45acp major loads. They were to light to make pf.

What would be considered a good group at 50yds with the 38 SC out of a S&W 357mag revolver? I would like to see at least a 4" circular group, is that doable? Round nose bullet.

Back to the drawing board....

41mag

[Bill Sahlberg]

Pat,

I shoot 38 Colt Shorts from my 5" 627 with good results. My group us under 2" at 25 yds everytime off a bench (no quite so good offhand)

I use a Montana Gold 130 gr RN .356 in Starline brass, with a Federal 100 primer and a tight crimp at 1.100" OAL. I shoot only Universal Clays 4.6 gr and consistently chrono at 1050 fps which is minor. Look at the 2008 Area 1 revolver results, I only won the standards stage...and that was shooting these bullets in minor. (16 A's and 8 C's)

I can shoot 15 stages without swabbing the cylinder even once. TiteGroup is not clean burning in the 38 Colt Short and you will find powder residues building up under your extractor star.

Bill Sahlberg

L1283

[Toolguy]

A .357 sized bullet will probably shoot better groups regardless of the case it starts out in.

[Carmoney]

Yeah, and I really don't think you're going to get the best accuracy from plated bullets, Pat.

It took me awhile to figure it out, but plated bullets really kinda suck.

I always got really good results using cast lead 125 RNs over Titegroup at minor P.F. in Short Colt brass. In all my guns. Good enough to convince me that bullet jump is not a real issue.

[41mag]

Thanks for the information gentlemen.

I have discovered something else that I'm sure you may already know......

I got the 158's that I mentioned above, found some load data using Bullseye and preceded to set up the press. I seated to the crimp ring. Nice looking load,except sure does look a little pregnant, um...better check in chamber. That's right, it won't fit.

I'm going to bet (without looking) that the case wall thickness is tapered and seating that deep has resulted in the total diameter of the bullet plus the brass has exceeded the max.

The load data was out of the Lyman 45th for the 9mm with a 158gr LSWC (according to a person on handloader.com) and I ignored the OAL.

I checked the bullets with the dial calibers and they seem to be fine.

Going to go find a drawing of the 38 SC to look at.....

41mag

[41mag]

Pat,

I shoot 38 Colt Shorts from my 5" 627 with good results. My group us under 2" at 25 yds everytime off a bench (no quite so good offhand)

I use a Montana Gold 130 gr RN .356 in Starline brass, with a Federal 100 primer and a tight crimp at 1.100" OAL. I shoot only Universal Clays 4.6 gr and consistently chrono at 1050 fps which is minor. Look at the 2008 Area 1 revolver results, I only won the standards stage...and that was shooting these bullets in minor. (16 A's and 8 C's)

I can shoot 15 stages without swabbing the cylinder even once. TiteGroup is not clean burning in the 38 Colt Short and you will find powder residues building up under your extractor star.

Bill Sahlberg

L1283

Thanks Bill.

I just went to there web site to check out that bullet and will have to say that the cost is nearly double what I was looking to spend. I'm paying almost that exact price for my jacketed 230gr 45.

Good job on those standards!

41mag

[TMC]

For what its worth, I use Rainier plated 158RN with 4.5grns of IMR 4756 in Short Colt cases. My 627 will shoot all of them in the X ring at 50. Power factor was 130 at last years IRC.

Edited January 16, 2009 by TMC

[41mag]

For what its worth, I use Rainier plated 158RN with 4.5grns of IMR 4756 in Short Colt cases. My 627 will shoot all of them in the X ring at 50. Power factor was 130 at last years IRC.

Thanks TMC

How big is the X-Ring? 50 yards? I only shoot USPSA and our A-zone is pretty large.

No trouble like I'm having bulging the case I take it. Are you loading long? Starline brass?

Any place to buy them reasonable (Rainier's) any more? I used to shoot them in my 45 but they doubled there prices. Jacketed (Zero) bullets are now cheaper then the Rainiers for the 45.

41mag

Edited January 16, 2009 by 41mag

[revoman]

For what its worth, I use Rainier plated 158RN with 4.5grns of IMR 4756 in Short Colt cases. My 627 will shoot all of them in the X ring at 50. Power factor was 130 at last years IRC.

What is your OAL?

[Carmoney]

For what its worth, I use Rainier plated 158RN with 4.5grns of IMR 4756 in Short Colt cases. My 627 will shoot all of them in the X ring at 50.

I probably overstated the issue with plated bullets. I actually had pretty decent accuracy with Rainiers in my 625. But when one of the bullets came apart in the barrel of my gun at the Summer Blast last year, spraying three close targets full of tiny little shrapnel holes, I decided not to trust plated bullets for match use anymore. I shot up what I had left and switched to Zeros for major matches and RNL for local matches.

[TMC]

For what its worth, I use Rainier plated 158RN with 4.5grns of IMR 4756 in Short Colt cases. My 627 will shoot all of them in the X ring at 50. Power factor was 130 at last years IRC.

What is your OAL?

1.130 about the same as a 9mm. I hear some people load them longer so there is less jump to the barrel but I figure if I'm using the short brass to speed the reload why would I want to make them long?

Mike, sorry to hear about your problems with Rainiers. I bought 10,000 a few years ago and I'm still shooting them. Maybe something has changed at Rainier recently.

Edited January 16, 2009 by TMC

[Carmoney]

It might have been just a freak incident. If the price of plated bullets ever comes back down, I would probably give them another try. Like Pat was saying, though, at this point they're no cheaper than jacketed....

[michaels]

you can use the bear creek lead round nose moly coated 170 grainers, loaded just a tad long with 3.9 grains of titegroup, anything more or less doesn't burn completly. The loaded moon should be top heavy, drop it and it always lands bullet first, like a dart. Use regular 38 spec cases, cut down to 9mm/38 short colt length, then you can use your regular 38 moons. Save all those split 38 cases and cut'em up. Bubber would approve...

Pretty good accuracy out of a 6inch N frame, from a sandbag at 25 yards, they'll all stay in the x ring on an icore target.

michaels

[revoman]

you can use the bear creek lead round nose moly coated 170 grainers, loaded just a tad long with 3.9 grains of titegroup, anything more or less doesn't burn completly. The loaded moon should be top heavy, drop it and it always lands bullet first, like a dart. Use regular 38 spec cases, cut down to 9mm/38 short colt length, then you can use your regular 38 moons. Save all those split 38 cases and cut'em up. Bubber would approve...

Pretty good accuracy out of a 6inch N frame, from a sandbag at 25 yards, they'll all stay in the x ring on an icore target.

michaels

What is the OAL if you measured it and what do they do at 50 yards?

[41mag]

Just playing with some components I have laying around.

I first worked up to 4grs of Titegroup under the Ranier 124 gr rn. This almost made minor from a 4" (like 124 pf). They chronoed real nice.

At 50yds from a make shift rest on a table top I shot 15 rounds. There was no sign of key holing but the group wasn't pretty. Not counting one flier the vertical spread was just OK at about 4 to 5" but the horizontal spread opened the group up to about 12".

Next I continued with the Titegroup in the measure and worked up to 5grs under the Berry 100gr hbrn. It made power factor easy at 128pf out of the same 4" gun.

Again at the 50yd mark I shot 15 rounds at the same (pasted) target used above. The group was almost identical including the low flier but added one more flier that was high.

These bullets are both .355" dia.

I also ordered some 158gr rn Bullet Works .357" that I will try soon.

What would be considered a good group at 50yds with the 38 SC out of a S&W 357mag revolver? I would like to see at least a 4" circular group, is that doable? Round nose bullet.

Back to the drawing board....

41mag

Looks like it will be possible to get good accuracy from the SC using .357 bullets any way. This load didn't make PF with 3.2 grs of Bullseye, made like 121pf. Average vel was 773 and the bullets seem to weigh 157. Can't find any data that encourages me to add any more powder to this load. I think somewhere a saw a load with n320 in the 9mm listing 9 hundred and something FPS but I didn't have any of that black gold dust to try it.

If these bullets don't cause leading problems I think I will be happy with them. Leading did show up in front of the forcing cone a bit and was chased out easily with a cylinder full of JHP's. If it gets no worse then that after several hundred rounds I can live with it.

Now I need another powder or more data to get up to PF, back to the drawing board again.

41mag

[Flexmoney]

Looks sporty, Pat.

(Your sights aren't loose in windage at all are they?)

[41mag]

Looks sporty, Pat.

(Your sights aren't loose in windage at all are they?)

I think there is something at play causing the horizontal stringing, but the sights are fine. The first loads in this thread also strung out bad. I think it may be the way the gun is recoiling off my frozen rest (that's not all that's frozen). I am also wasting no time shooting these groups and heading back indoors. The warmest I saw today was 0! I am just happy to see that there is good potential there for accurate loads in the 38 Short Colt. When the weather warms up the groups will get a tad better .

[Carmoney]

If it was at all breezy out there, that could certainly explain the horizontal stringing. Otherwise, it certainly looks like you're well on your way, Pat. I don't think I'd get too concerned about staying within published loads, after all you're shooting them out of a revolver made with modern metallurgical technology that has been tested with .357 proof loads, not some old rickety top-break H&R, right? If you don't get crazy with it, you should be able to bump your load up to a comfortable power factor with no problem, I would think.

[michaels]

you can use the bear creek lead round nose moly coated 170 grainers, loaded just a tad long with 3.9 grains of titegroup, anything more or less doesn't burn completly. The loaded moon should be top heavy, drop it and it always lands bullet first, like a dart. Use regular 38 spec cases, cut down to 9mm/38 short colt length, then you can use your regular 38 moons. Save all those split 38 cases and cut'em up. Bubber would approve...

Pretty good accuracy out of a 6inch N frame, from a sandbag at 25 yards, they'll all stay in the x ring on an icore target.

michaels

What is the OAL if you measured it and what do they do at 50 yards?

1.24 oal, tight crimp, don't remember the 50 yard data other than they scored better than my 158's did at the range

michaels

[41mag]

I bumped this up to 3.4 grs and made 126pf with an average of 805fps. Might set it at 3.5 grs and call it good. Or I might just leave it (3.4) as I will never be shooting a major match with it any way. The only game I play for keeps is USPSA and I will stay with major loads for that.

[AzShooter]

38 Short 158 D&A 627 5 Power Pistol 4.8 818 129244.00

38 Short 158 D&A 627 5 Unique 3.7 864 136512.00 3.3 would work

38 short 160 D&A 627 5 Power Pist 5 843 134880.00

38 Short 160 D&A 627 5 Red Dot 2.9 680 108800.00 needs 750 fps

38 Short 160 D&A 627 5 Scott 1000 3.6 899 143840.00 2 X 3 Shows promise

Here's some load data that I need a few years ago. You are more than welcome to try them. I'd hold back on the Power Pistol load and calculate just what you need for minor. There were some signs of excessive pressure.

Solo 1000 and Bullseye are so close I often exchange data with them.

Unique was excellent but a little dirty.

[Carmoney]

I bumped this up to 3.4 grs and made 126pf with an average of 805fps. Might set it at 3.5 grs and call it good. Or I might just leave it (3.4) as I will never be shooting a major match with it any way. The only game I play for keeps is USPSA and I will stay with major loads for that.

If I remember the rules correctly, the required power factor for ICORE is 120 and only one round has to make it. So your 3.4 load would probably be just fine if you ever decided to shoot an ICORE match.

[41mag]

38 Short 158 D&A 627 5 Power Pistol 4.8 818 129244.00

38 Short 158 D&A 627 5 Unique 3.7 864 136512.00 3.3 would work

38 short 160 D&A 627 5 Power Pist 5 843 134880.00

38 Short 160 D&A 627 5 Red Dot 2.9 680 108800.00 needs 750 fps

38 Short 160 D&A 627 5 Scott 1000 3.6 899 143840.00 2 X 3 Shows promise

Here's some load data that I need a few years ago. You are more than welcome to try them. I'd hold back on the Power Pistol load and calculate just what you need for minor. There were some signs of excessive pressure.

Solo 1000 and Bullseye are so close I often exchange data with them.

Unique was excellent but a little dirty.

Thanks AzShooter,

What kind of bullet is D&A? LRN?

[41mag]

I bumped this up to 3.4 grs and made 126pf with an average of 805fps. Might set it at 3.5 grs and call it good. Or I might just leave it (3.4) as I will never be shooting a major match with it any way. The only game I play for keeps is USPSA and I will stay with major loads for that.

If I remember the rules correctly, the required power factor for ICORE is 120 and only one round has to make it. So your 3.4 load would probably be just fine if you ever decided to shoot an ICORE match.

Thanks for the info Mike,

I wish I had ICORE available around here, I do want to make some match's some time. Sounds like a lot of fun.

I thought I heard 120pf somewhere...I actually checked the rule book today to make sure it was 125 for USPSA.

I have added a bit of a goal to the revo shooting for this year, I will use the 38 8-shot in production and try to elevate my default "B" rating to an "A".

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Southern Regional in March Pat. Down in Thibodeaux, same place as Gator. Come on down!