650 chewing my primers - all the time!

[Steve W]

Hey Gang,

I new to this site and forum, if this was covered previously, I apologize.

I'm using a 650, loading .40 cal, using Winchester small rifle & pistol primers, various brass; Federal, Star line, Speer, Winchester, etc. I'm on my 2nd press from Dillon, and still having the same issues - CONSTANTLY CHEWING PRIMERS!!

I have had the presses into Dillon no less than 5-6 times, they have checked it out, recalibrated it, made various adjustments, changed out the entire primer system, shell plate, you name it - they did it, and it still chews the primers. While they have been great about trying to make it right, and working with me to get this fixed, they are telling me it's the brass, NOT the machine. They had the machine for a few days, and they just loaded 500+ pieces of brand new and once fired Federal brass, and they claim 99% of the time, no problem. Then they used some of my brass which was admittedly used a few more times, and they claim that's when they had problems. I'm not trying to use brass 20x, just doing the same as all the shooters out there, 6-7 times (some times more?), then I'll discard it. Some of the veteran shooters say they can reload a piece of brass as many as 8-10 times. Dillon told me it's more like 3-4 times per case - that sounds way low to me.

The press is on the strong mounts, and on a very sturdy bench, no issues there. Plenty of lube where needed, the dies are tight, everything is double checked before loading.

Bottom line - I would say 1 out of every 3-4 rounds, the primers get chewed up, and it's impossible to use this press.

I've spoken to a few of the shooters at Rio, SGC, etc. Some of them have said they've experienced some issues like this with a 650, but not with this type of frequency. Others tell me they have loaded 500,000+ rounds, and their 650 works just fine. Maybe once in a while, they chew a few, but nothing like this.

Has anyone else out there experienced similar or the same problems? If so, please elaborate on the details, and on the solutions. Any help is welcomed.

Thx!!!

Steve W

steve@nextwaveconsulting.net

[JThompson]

Bold and big... YUCK

[Steve W]

Bold and big... YUCK

How about posting something productive instead of Bold and Big YUCK????

[JThompson]

Bold and big... YUCK

How about posting something productive instead of Bold and Big YUCK????

Because you posted it bold and big which irritated me, but more than that, you are not listening to the best source you have... Dillon. Get some decent brass.

Edited January 10, 2009 by JThompson

[Matt Cheely]

Check to see if the plunger that seats the primers isn't bent slightly. I had it happen to me and started crushing at least 25% of the primers.

[Chris Keen]

If you can afford a 650, then you can afford some new brass ..... or at least some once fired. That shouldnt cost more then $30-40.

[wide45]

What does "chewing primers" mean? Is it biting them in half?

[Tom S.]

The 40 S&W uses small primers. You aren't using the large primer set up (or parts there of) by mistake are you?

Next, are any of your cases military/government, that may have a crimped primer pocket?

How smoothly does your press index? If it's 'jerking' it may be flipping the primers.

Last (that I can think of) have you tried cycling the press with no brass and see how the primers show up in the priming station?

BTW: Since you loading 40 S&W, did you read this post:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=31326&hl=

Might be part of your problem!

Edited January 10, 2009 by Tom S.

[sfinney]

The press is on the strong mounts, and on a very sturdy bench, no issues there.

Steve, I apologize if this basic or redundant. This is a common issue to 650s, they are sensitive in the primer system..... but not at the rate you are having...... which leads me to:

First, is your bench anchored to the wall? Even if its sturdy, IT CANNOT MOVE AT ALL when you cycle the handle. Even a little bobble is enough to get the primers flipping in the pocket, when you are reloading at speed. Use angle irons and screws or whatnot, secure it to the studs in the wall.

Secondly, I know you said its been checked by Dillon, but the adjustment of the primer system is CRITICAL. Make sure the primers are lining up correctly, 100%, with the hole when the shell plate turns. Adjust as needed. It has to be perfect.

Last, the 650 requires a certain touch.... a feel..... you must cycle the handle smoothly and firmly, without bouncing the handle top or bottom. You can do this quiclkly, but it take practice. A slight hesitation at top and bottom of the stroke, to avoid any impact.

ps - I doubt there is anyone in the world that can advise you better than the Dillon techs how to best use their machines. If they say your brass is mangy, get new brass. At major PF, I typically reload 3 to 4 times max. Sure you can go more..... but .40 brass is cheap, and available. If you are trying for 10 times, you are going to have issues.

Welcome to the forums.

Edited January 10, 2009 by sfinney

[HSMITH]

What does "chewing primers" mean? Is it biting them in half?

+1, what exactly is a 'chewed' primer? Can you post a picture?

Welcome to the best place on the internet! Sorry you didn't receive the typical warm welcome.

[Merlin Orr]

If Dillon has had the machine and it worked well for them.... It would seem to me that perhaps you should objectively examine your technique and your total process in loading. Smooth and easy with decent brass and a properly adjusted machine you should have very few problems. If you know someone close by that also loads on a 650 have them load some on your machine and see if it works for them. Try different components and see if different brands of primers/brass works better.

If you continue to have problems you might consider that the machine just does not like you.... Sometimes a different machine may help. If not move on to something different. Dillon has great stuff but others swear by other brands of equipment.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Merlin Orr

[Steve W]

Check to see if the plunger that seats the primers isn't bent slightly. I had it happen to me and started crushing at least 25% of the primers.

Thx, I did check that, it's fine, and does not appear to be ther source of the problem. Thx anayway.

[Steve W]

What does "chewing primers" mean? Is it biting them in half?

When I complete the up stroke with the handle, it gets' stuck and binds the primers. If I continue the stroke, I am literally chewing up the primers.

[Steve W]

The press is on the strong mounts, and on a very sturdy bench, no issues there.

Steve, I apologize if this basic or redundant. This is a common issue to 650s, they are sensitive in the primer system..... but not at the rate you are having...... which leads me to:

First, is your bench anchored to the wall? Even if its sturdy, IT CANNOT MOVE AT ALL when you cycle the handle. Even a little bobble is enough to get the primers flipping in the pocket, when you are reloading at speed. Use angle irons and screws or whatnot, secure it to the studs in the wall.

Secondly, I know you said its been checked by Dillon, but the adjustment of the primer system is CRITICAL. Make sure the primers are lining up correctly, 100%, with the hole when the shell plate turns. Adjust as needed. It has to be perfect.

Last, the 650 requires a certain touch.... a feel..... you must cycle the handle smoothly and firmly, without bouncing the handle top or bottom. You can do this quiclkly, but it take practice. A slight hesitation at top and bottom of the stroke, to avoid any impact.

ps - I doubt there is anyone in the world that can advise you better than the Dillon techs how to best use their machines. If they say your brass is mangy, get new brass. At major PF, I typically reload 3 to 4 times max. Sure you can go more..... but .40 brass is cheap, and available. If you are trying for 10 times, you are going to have issues.

Welcome to the forums.

SFinney,

Thx for the help.

Maybe I was not clear, I'm not trying to squeeze nickels here, I have no problem throwing brass away after 3-4 shots, if that's what's needed. However many of the veteran shooters say they clearly get at least 5-6 shots from a piece of brass, so I'm following that lead. If it looks like crap, trust me, i AM trhowing it away.

The bench is rock solid, no issues there.

The guys at Dillon did say what you said, about a slight pause at the top of the up stroke.

Frankly, the better shooters, who have reloaded with these machines for many years, know these machines FAR more than the techs at Dillon. Some of those guys are not very sharp - just being honest. I trust the guiys who shoot and reload 50k rounds per year, more than just some of the factory workers who NEVER shoot.

I'll keep working on it tomorrow. Thx agaon!

Steve W.

[Steve W]

If Dillon has had the machine and it worked well for them.... It would seem to me that perhaps you should objectively examine your technique and your total process in loading. Smooth and easy with decent brass and a properly adjusted machine you should have very few problems. If you know someone close by that also loads on a 650 have them load some on your machine and see if it works for them. Try different components and see if different brands of primers/brass works better.

If you continue to have problems you might consider that the machine just does not like you.... Sometimes a different machine may help. If not move on to something different. Dillon has great stuff but others swear by other brands of equipment.

Good ideas, I've been speaking with fellow 650 users and will try that.

Yes, I was considering a different machine, but too many people tell me they feel the 650 is one of the best machines out there, really versatile (though for now, I'm just reloading one caliber - .40 S&W), they swear by it. Many shooters I shoot with say they've reloaded 300,000+ plus rounds, no issues. No reason why I can find a functional 650 press.

Thx for your help, I appreciate it!

[buddy_fuentes]

Steve, I load on a 650 and use range brass and do not have issues. However, I bought a 650 for my son and he had issue after issue with his primer feed locking the whole press up. I would take it apart re-align everything and it would run a few times then stop. I call Dillon and got a different Tech (Mike) and he told me to look in the "primer wheel" holes and see if there was a burr. Sure enough it had a burr in several of them. I polished them out and it ran like that until the new wheel came from Dillon. (the burrs are not very noticeable...I first told Mike that there were none)

I think the whole issue started because the bench was not anchored very well and allowed too much movement of the press when loading. The movement flipped a primer and caused the press to lock up. Being big and strong guys...we can power through anything. That is when the burrs got etched into the primer wheel.

My suggestion is that you reposition your press and make sure it doesn't move, check for burrs, and buy a couple of hundred once fired brass. Test the brass and see if there is any difference in the loading. I don't think it will be. I have a lot of brass that has been reloaded over ten times.

I like the large print. It helps my old eyes read the forum. I too, apologize for the less than warm welcome you received, he probably is having a bad day.

Hope this helps, Buddy

[HSMITH]

Is there any way you can get a picture of the primer when you have the problem?

To have it stick with the seater in the primer pocket or at the end of the upstroke I would be looking for misalignment between the wheel and the shellplate.

[Nik Habicht]

I used to load on a 650 and a 1050 on a sturdy bench, further weighted down with ~ 600 lbs. of bullets on the second floor of a frame house. I had occasional problems with both presses, and figured that ~ 1-3/100 was to be expected when engaging in volume reloading. I ignored the advice about securing the bench to the studs.

In 2006 we moved. My reloading space now is on top of a concrete slab. Same bench, same presses, far fewer bullets holding down the bench --- and I'm down to ~ 1-4 problems/1000 rounds loaded on the 650 and 0/1000 on the 1050.....

I'm never putting my bench on something other than a slab again....

That and smoothness of operation are really the two key elements to successfully loading on a Dillon progressive. (Obviously your press should be checked out if there's a problem to eliminate the machine, obviously you should be good quality components....)

Last thought: If you're using mixed headstamp brass, it might pay to sort it --- to determine if there's a particular type/types that the press doesn't like. (Or, if you're averse to sorting --- look at the problem rounds to determine if they have a or a couple of headstamps in common....)

[Nik Habicht]

Last but not least a tip on text sizing for those of you who prefer a larger typeface:

Hold down the control button on the keyboard and turn the wheel on the mouse --- you can make the text larger and smaller on the page....

[ChuckS]

I had been using a 650 with SP primers for a couple years with no issues. I changed the press over to LP primers with the extra primer feeder that I bought and had troubles crushing primers. It turned out there were some slight burrs on the primer plate. So, I dressed the holes and polished both side of the plate and it worked (and continues to work) fine. I just loaded ~ 2500 45 ACP with zero primer issues. I do take the mechanism apart to clean and then when I re-assemble the press, I push the handle forward to raise the primer punch through the disk before I do the final tightening of the primer assy mounting bolts to ensure alignment.

Good luck,

Chuck

[Steve W]

If you can afford a 650, then you can afford some new brass ..... or at least some once fired. That shouldnt cost more then $30-40.

I have no problem buying new or once fired brass as frequently as necessary. However, virtually every M or GM shooter / reloader I shoot with says this is a B.S. excuse from Dillon. They all say I should be able to get 5+ reloads out of a piece of brass - minimum.

[Steve W]

Steve, I load on a 650 and use range brass and do not have issues. However, I bought a 650 for my son and he had issue after issue with his primer feed locking the whole press up. I would take it apart re-align everything and it would run a few times then stop. I call Dillon and got a different Tech (Mike) and he told me to look in the "primer wheel" holes and see if there was a burr. Sure enough it had a burr in several of them. I polished them out and it ran like that until the new wheel came from Dillon. (the burrs are not very noticeable...I first told Mike that there were none)

I think the whole issue started because the bench was not anchored very well and allowed too much movement of the press when loading. The movement flipped a primer and caused the press to lock up. Being big and strong guys...we can power through anything. That is when the burrs got etched into the primer wheel.

My suggestion is that you reposition your press and make sure it doesn't move, check for burrs, and buy a couple of hundred once fired brass. Test the brass and see if there is any difference in the loading. I don't think it will be. I have a lot of brass that has been reloaded over ten times.

I like the large print. It helps my old eyes read the forum. I too, apologize for the less than warm welcome you received, he probably is having a bad day.

Hope this helps, Buddy

Buddy,

Thx for the help, you sounds like a good guy, like 99% of the shooters I have met.

I too spoke with them about that primer plate, and yes, they noticed a bur, so they gave me a new plate. This past Friday, I went down to Dilon, and worked on the press with Randy Shelley (senior level of mgmt for 20 years), and another tech. They tried a brand new plate, as they acknowledged they had some bad ones before. It kept doijng the same damn thing - chewed the primers. They went on to tell me that's "somewhat normal". I don't buy that. Too many Master and Grandmaster shooters I know say this is all B.S. from Dillon. They say the primer system is just not working properly, and I need to get one that does work right.

Tomorrow, I am going down there, we're going to load 250 pieces of 1-2 times fired Federal brass (from Dillon), and try to load a few hundred rounds with other brass I picked up from the range and cleaned thoroughly. This will be somewhat of an acid test, I guess??

Thx again for your kindness.

Stefve W

[Steve W]

Steve, I load on a 650 and use range brass and do not have issues. However, I bought a 650 for my son and he had issue after issue with his primer feed locking the whole press up. I would take it apart re-align everything and it would run a few times then stop. I call Dillon and got a different Tech (Mike) and he told me to look in the "primer wheel" holes and see if there was a burr. Sure enough it had a burr in several of them. I polished them out and it ran like that until the new wheel came from Dillon. (the burrs are not very noticeable...I first told Mike that there were none)

I think the whole issue started because the bench was not anchored very well and allowed too much movement of the press when loading. The movement flipped a primer and caused the press to lock up. Being big and strong guys...we can power through anything. That is when the burrs got etched into the primer wheel.

My suggestion is that you reposition your press and make sure it doesn't move, check for burrs, and buy a couple of hundred once fired brass. Test the brass and see if there is any difference in the loading. I don't think it will be. I have a lot of brass that has been reloaded over ten times.

I like the large print. It helps my old eyes read the forum. I too, apologize for the less than warm welcome you received, he probably is having a bad day.

Hope this helps, Buddy

Buddy,

I meant to add, the press is rock solid on this bench, zero movement of the press when i reload, no issues there.

[HSMITH]

So just what is a 'chewed' primer? It has been asked a few times.

[Steve W]

So just what is a 'chewed' primer? It has been asked a few times.

Sorry, I don't have one handy to post a picture, i'll get that by tomorrow.

Basically, it's all chewed up, mangled, broken into 2 pieces at times. I have to use a pair of tweezers at times to remove the broken primer from the primer wheel.