Why 38 Super?

[steveyacht]

I have been wondering this for quite a while and never asked anyone. Why is the 38 Super so popular for competition guns?

[HSMITH]

Smallest diameter that makes major within the rules, long cases that fit the magazines well with high capacity, lots of case capacity for slow powders that drive the comp well, lots of data for loading it and a comfort level most other competing cartridges don't have.

Super Comp is everything good about the 38 Super without the one downside that is the semi rimmed case.

[Duane Thomas]

Around 1980 (though I believe the first compensators were actually developed a few years previously), IPSC shooters discovered that compensators allowed the guns to shoot flatter, and that it took a large volume of high pressure gas, more than could be generated by the low pressure .45 ACP, to really operate the comp efficiently. Shooters like Robbie Leatham, Bruce Gray and our 'umble host discovered that the near-obsolete .38 Super cartridge, when pushed beyond what had previously been considered safe pressure levels, gave the gas volume and pressure needed to efficiently operate the compensator, and in the single stack magazines extant at the time gave an extra round in the mag.

By the time high cap guns became available, the Super was so established as the IPSC compgun cartridge of choice that pistolsmiths just figured out how to make .38 Super feed in a double stack mag. Arguably these days there are cartridges, like .38 Super Comp, 9x23 Winchester, etc. that can fill the same niche and are innately more feed reliable than the semirimmed .38 Super. But still the Super is the overwhelming choice since it simply had a double digit years worth of headstart over the pretenders to the throne. Inertia is a wonderful thing.

[BSeevers]

In addition, the power factor used to be 175 so with the few powders available in those days 38 Super and its 9 x 23 case gave you the extra 4mm over a 9 x 19 case. More volume and much easier and safer to get there.

We needed a 180 PF velocities and it fit the bill.

[Duane Thomas]

I believe - and I could stand to be corrected on this - that at the time the .38 Super rose to ascendancy, Major power factor was 165, no? Raising the power factor to 175 was a response by the powers-that-were to discourage shooters from using hot loaded .38 Super after a few high profile gun blowups. They figured, "There's no way they'll be able to push .38 Super that much harder and still be safe, so people will switch back to .45 ACP." A classic example of an approach that had the exact opposite result of what was originally intended. Because with Major pf set at 175 instead of 165, shooters just stuck with the Super and pushed it even harder. The recent lowering of Major pf from 175 back down to 165, in my opinion, just rectified that old mistake.

[G-ManBart]

I believe - and I could stand to be corrected on this - that at the time the .38 Super rose to ascendancy, Major power factor was 165, no? Raising the power factor to 175 was a response by the powers-that-were to discourage shooters from using hot loaded .38 Super after a few high profile gun blowups. They figured, "There's no way they'll be able to push .38 Super that much harder and still be safe, so people will switch back to .45 ACP." A classic example of an approach that had the exact opposite result of what was originally intended. Because with Major pf set at 175 instead of 165, shooters just stuck with the Super and pushed it even harder. The recent lowering of Major pf from 175 back down to 165, in my opinion, just rectified that old mistake.

I think you're right, but I remember someone saying that another part of it was to discourage or make impossible making major with 9x19. I didn't start shooting IPSC/USPSA until around 1990 so a lot of those changes were 6,8 or 10 years old at the time and 9x21 was the fashionable solution to using something other than 38 Super...and I think it worked a little better in the early P9/Witness frames if memory serves me (actually, Super might not even fit those now that I think of it)...sure someone will clarify.

[XRe]

but I remember someone saying that another part of it was to discourage or make impossible making major with 9x19.

Heh... any load that ran in 9x21 would run in 9x19... You can make old Major w/ 9x19 using the right powders (though they're quite a bit higher pressure than what is being shot in Major 9 now...

I didn't start shooting IPSC/USPSA until around 1990 so a lot of those changes were 6,8 or 10 years old at the time and 9x21 was the fashionable solution to using something other than 38 Super...and I think it worked a little better in the early P9/Witness frames if memory serves me (actually, Super might not even fit those now that I think of it)...sure someone will clarify.

The original P9/Witness/CZ-clone frames won't even fit Super-ish OAL cartridges, so you had to run something in the 9x19 overall length range. 9x21 got you around the 9x19 limitation in the rules (it was a hard limit, when I started into the game), but allowed you to keep a short-ish OAL and still make Major. I was doing it w/ 135s and 130s using Win 540 (HS-6) and 3N37... 124s were definitely do-able, as well, but many of us felt like we were asking for longevity issues in the CZ-ish guns w/ 124s at old major...

[SharonAnne9x23]

The power factor in the USA when the 38 Super became popular was 170. IPSC power factor was 175. IPSC wanted the USA kicked out for not going with 175PF. By the 2004 rule book,IPSC has lowered Open major PF to 160, Standard division major PF to 170,Modified is 170, and Revolver is 170. Now IPSC is mad at USPSA for its 165PF for major, across the board. Personally, I think it is Nick Alexakos trying to get USPSA under his thumb.

[BSeevers]

9 x 21 was a cartridge that was invented in countries that don't allow civilians to shoot a "military" caliber like 9 x 19 mm. It was adapted by us for a "trick" to get to major with 9mm. P9's and the like were the real users of 9 x 21. Don't remember any Para's in 9 x21. By the way STI was not the dominant double stack, it was Para, the only choice for a while. I do remember P9's bending slide stops and breaking on a regular basis at 175 PF. Most guys had two.

3n37 was a powder that came in later and allowed powders such as Blue Dot and AA7 to go away. I am pretty sure we could switch back to the old PF with current powders and all guns could play. I wish we would.

I don't remember a 170 PF but would welcome a real old timer input on that but everything I remember everything was based on a what Mr Cooper called a "real" defensive rd. The 230 gr .45 going like 830 ft per sec. That's well above 170 or 175 PF.

I used to load 200 gr going 900 and remember looking for that number but will admit we were a little more macho and shot hot loads. Going minor was like wearing a skirt.(sorry Troy)

I took some crap for shooting a gamer 200 gr load in my dual port comp. I am not kidding. PS for you kids that was a SS .45 with gamer 8 rd mags. I started with a regular .45 and then a single racer port comp advancing to a dual ports. There was an arms race especially when double stacks, red dots and the like came in.

Maybe my numbers are off, but I don't think so, but I shot a 115gr going 1550 fps for like 10 years. I do remember looking for 1550 fps at many majors for many years. Now its 1450.

Edited January 4, 2009 by BSeevers

[PistolPete]

What they said.....

[9x21]

Ahhh,

9x21 & the good old days.........................

Still works fine for me!

[G-ManBart]

I didn't start shooting IPSC/USPSA until around 1990 so a lot of those changes were 6,8 or 10 years old at the time and 9x21 was the fashionable solution to using something other than 38 Super...and I think it worked a little better in the early P9/Witness frames if memory serves me (actually, Super might not even fit those now that I think of it)...sure someone will clarify.

The original P9/Witness/CZ-clone frames won't even fit Super-ish OAL cartridges, so you had to run something in the 9x19 overall length range. 9x21 got you around the 9x19 limitation in the rules (it was a hard limit, when I started into the game), but allowed you to keep a short-ish OAL and still make Major. I was doing it w/ 135s and 130s using Win 540 (HS-6) and 3N37... 124s were definitely do-able, as well, but many of us felt like we were asking for longevity issues in the CZ-ish guns w/ 124s at old major...

Yeah, that's what I thought and why I said I didn't think Super would fit in the P9 size frames. I was shooting Super at the time, but I thought that 9x21 was pretty much full to make major with the lighter bullets and didn't think you could fit that much in 9x19 cases...I guess that would just depend on what powder and how much you were willing to stress your gun. Ah, for the old days of .38 Super, AA#7 and CP Elite bullets

[Paradiddle]

So is there any reason to shoot it now? I'm considering getting an upper for my Colt 1911 to "convert" it from .45 to 38 super. I shoot minor production now with a CZ75 9mm, but have wanted to try my hand with my 1911. I can shoot the .45, I'm just a LOT slower at this point and thought maybe 38 super would be a way to utilize the platform and pick some speed back up and still make major. I don't run a race gun - it's a regular old 1911 with some of the key mods (trigger, beavertail, magwell, etc.)

It's either that or practice with the .45 which is probably what I should do.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jeff

[G-ManBart]

So is there any reason to shoot it now? I'm considering getting an upper for my Colt 1911 to "convert" it from .45 to 38 super. I shoot minor production now with a CZ75 9mm, but have wanted to try my hand with my 1911. I can shoot the .45, I'm just a LOT slower at this point and thought maybe 38 super would be a way to utilize the platform and pick some speed back up and still make major. I don't run a race gun - it's a regular old 1911 with some of the key mods (trigger, beavertail, magwell, etc.)

It's either that or practice with the .45 which is probably what I should do.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jeff

If you're going to shoot your 1911 in Single Stack the minimum bore size for major is .40 so you can't shoot .38 Super Major with it. Best bet would really be to work on a handload that's right around 170pf for that .45 and just practice. Besides, .38 Super Major in a 5" 1911 is a pretty unpleasant combination for most folks.

[Paradiddle]

So is there any reason to shoot it now? I'm considering getting an upper for my Colt 1911 to "convert" it from .45 to 38 super. I shoot minor production now with a CZ75 9mm, but have wanted to try my hand with my 1911. I can shoot the .45, I'm just a LOT slower at this point and thought maybe 38 super would be a way to utilize the platform and pick some speed back up and still make major. I don't run a race gun - it's a regular old 1911 with some of the key mods (trigger, beavertail, magwell, etc.)

It's either that or practice with the .45 which is probably what I should do.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jeff

If you're going to shoot your 1911 in Single Stack the minimum bore size for major is .40 so you can't shoot .38 Super Major with it. Best bet would really be to work on a handload that's right around 170pf for that .45 and just practice. Besides, .38 Super Major in a 5" 1911 is a pretty unpleasant combination for most folks.

Thanks - that is what I needed to know.

Jeff

[SharonAnne9x23]

Cooper and his cronies used a 'ballistic pendulum'. It was a steel plate hanging from a shaft. To make major you had to move the indicator a certain amount. The amount was established by what a Colt Commander shooting 230gr ball ammo, would move the indicator. So it was 230gr ball from a 4 1/4" barrel, not a 5" barrel, to get major. The ballistic pendulums were notoriously inaccurate. When lower cost chronographs came about that is when we got a number for power factor. bullet weight in grains X velocity in feet per second = 170,000 for major, 125,000 for minor.

When the .38 Super made major ol' Coop about had a fit. HIS game was not following HIS teachings. He forgot about all of his own research into what I think he called the 38 Sooper Cooper. A cut down .223 case hot loaded with a 125 gr bullet. Some one dared to make major with a cartridge that Coop did not bless.

Another reason for the .38Super is the reduced torque of the .355" bullet compared to the .45". It was especially noticeable with counterclockwise rifling. The pistol would twist up and to the left. This resulted in the pistol trying to pull out of your right hand. With the smaller diameter bullet there was much less twist and rise.

[XRe]

Where did the 170 number come from? When I started into the game in 1993, it was 175 PF - and was 175 until it was lowered to 160 in IPSC, 165 in USPSA... ???

[G-ManBart]

Where did the 170 number come from? When I started into the game in 1993, it was 175 PF - and was 175 until it was lowered to 160 in IPSC, 165 in USPSA... ???

175 was after they raised it to prevent 9x19 from making Major.

[Allgoodhits]

Wow! A history lesson too.

....and to add to one of the earlier posts, the onset of ramped barrels and the chamber cut to headspace off of the neck intsead of the rim really caused the Super to jump in popularity. Without the ramp, the higher pressures would likely not have been achieved safely, and without Bar Sto cutting the chambers to headspace off of the neck the accuracy would have never been there.

The cartridge goes back to the mid 1930's +/- but the headspace and ramped barrels as I recall was a early mid 1980's thing.

MJ

[G-ManBart]

Wow! A history lesson too.

....and to add to one of the earlier posts, the onset of ramped barrels and the chamber cut to headspace off of the neck intsead of the rim really caused the Super to jump in popularity. Without the ramp, the higher pressures would likely not have been achieved safely, and without Bar Sto cutting the chambers to headspace off of the neck the accuracy would have never been there.

The cartridge goes back to the mid 1930's +/- but the headspace and ramped barrels as I recall was a early mid 1980's thing.

MJ

I have a Bar-Sto .38 Super barrel in my first Open gun (still have it) and it's non-ramped. It actually offers as much case support as most ramped barrels (obviously haven't compared all of them). I talked to Irv III about it and he said it simply wasn't worth switching if the gun was working (it was). R,

[Allgoodhits]

Wow! A history lesson too.

....and to add to one of the earlier posts, the onset of ramped barrels and the chamber cut to headspace off of the neck intsead of the rim really caused the Super to jump in popularity. Without the ramp, the higher pressures would likely not have been achieved safely, and without Bar Sto cutting the chambers to headspace off of the neck the accuracy would have never been there.

The cartridge goes back to the mid 1930's +/- but the headspace and ramped barrels as I recall was a early mid 1980's thing.

MJ

I have a Bar-Sto .38 Super barrel in my first Open gun (still have it) and it's non-ramped. It actually offers as much case support as most ramped barrels (obviously haven't compared all of them). I talked to Irv III about it and he said it simply wasn't worth switching if the gun was working (it was). R,

Yep, I have an old COLT Series 70 with a nonramped BarSto too. It also works great. The ramp probably made feeding more friendly for a greater variety of bullets.

I also have an open gun with a ramped barrel, that some gun plumber has reamed so much of the chamber at 6'oclock that it provided less support than a normal nonramped barrel. Irving Stone, haven't spoken to him since BarSto stopped coming to Bianchi.

MJ

[Duane Thomas]

The cartridge goes back to the mid 1930's +/-

1929, actually.

[XRe]

The cartridge goes back to the mid 1930's +/-

1929, actually.

Hell, if you figure its really just a hopped up .38 ACP, it goes back to the late 1890s, in effect....

[Duane Thomas]

Yeah, the gun that would eventually evolve into the Model 1911 was first developed by John Browning in 1895. I'm unsure if that prototype was actually chambered in .38 ACP, though I do know that by 1897 there was a .38 ACP prototype. The cartridge we call .38 Super (admittedly just a hot-loaded .38 ACP) was introduced commercially in 1929.

[Allgoodhits]

Yeah, the gun that would eventually evolve into the Model 1911 was first developed by John Browning in 1895. I'm unsure if that prototype was actually chambered in .38 ACP, though I do know that by 1897 there was a .38 ACP prototype. The cartridge we call .38 Super (admittedly just a hot-loaded .38 ACP) was introduced commercially in 1929.

Was it called the 38 ACP or was it just 38 Automatic?

Didn't the hot .38 Super load come as a result of LE wanting a handgun round which would penetrate automobile doors, window glass and possibly disable engines if rounds hit vital components after pasing through the hood, which then the hood actually came along the sides of the engine compartments too. The lead .38 spl load of the day and the .45 auto load of the day would deflect unless a perpendicular impact angle.