Moon Clip Gun

[tightloop]

I am thinking of either buying or building a revo which shoots ammo held in a moon clip, a la, S&W 25-2.

The question is, what would you build/buy. An older 25-2, the new performance center 25-2, Can you shoot 40's in a 610 10mm pistol, or would you go with the 686 in 38 Super.

Everything I have is set up to load 45, but I do have all the stuff to load 40S&W or 10mm, and I just need some dies to do 38Super.

I am very opposed to having a key lock on the side of my pistol, so bearing that in mind, what would the revo shooters on this forum suggest.

Been shooting my bud's 1955 Mod S&W in ACP, and love it, but the barrel is rather long, and it is an N frame gun and heavy.

If I decide to build one, who would you choose and why. While I know some pro 'smiths in the area, none are revo experts.

Thanks for the help.

[Bill Nesbitt]

What are you going to use it for? A S&W 625 in 45 ACP is the most popular gun in IDPA and I think USPSA as well. It make major for USPSA and only needs to make a 125 power factor for IDPA. A 4 inch barrel is maximum in IDPA. I don't think it makes any difference in USPSA as long as it is a factory barrel. The big 45 holes in the cylinder are very easy to hit. I haven't seen a 686 in 38 super yet. S&W also made a few 646's. An L-frame in 40 S&W. They didn't go over to well because of the chamber spacing, moon clips of different sizes and it was hard to find roundnose bullets in 40.

I have an old 25-2 that has been cut to 4 inches. If I was starting over I would look at the 686 in 38 super or look for a 625 with the firing pin in the hammer.

Bill Nesbitt

[tightloop]

Bill

Thanks for the fast reply.

I am not going to shoot competition USPSA, but might shoot an IDPA match or two next year with it. I know the power factor is only 125, and bigger bullet holes are better there. Can you just cut off the bbl to 4 inches and go with it? What do you do about the ramp and reinstalling it. Do they just mill it off the barrel under the flat of the sight and then cut the bbl to 4" and silver solder it back on?

What about someone to do the work. What all did you do to yours, and who did it. I am leaning toward finding an older 25-2 but they are getting expensive and hard to find one which isn't shot to pieces and out of time.

Thanks

[Bill Nesbitt]

I had the barrel on mine cut to 4 inches years ago by Cylinder & Slide for Second Chance. Bill remounted the original sight with silver solder.

IDPA HQ said it was OK to cut barrels and round butt the grip because that was consistant with concealed carry.

S&W will rebarrel a 625 to 4 inch for around $150 or so and a place in Ohio cuts them back and mounts a Weigand sight.

Al Greco near Pittsburgh PA also does good work on revolvers.

If you just want a revolver to shoot IDPA I would recommend a K-frame S&W with Safariland Comp lll speedloaders.

Bill Nesbitt

[tightloop]

Bill

Thanks for the info. I have never had C&S do any work but have heard it is good. Do they do a good action job as well?

Who's grips do you use on yours? The big Goncola Alves look cool but do not fit the hand very well.

[DougCarden]

Pure game gun, SW 610 with .40s, no problem.next,

SW 625 with 230 roundnose or Berrys 185 HBRN (230 appearance).

Nothing wrong with 25-2, but mike the cylinder and bbl gap to see if it is set up for .452 or .454. Some older guns wouldnt group well with regular .45 ammo, and it was due to being set up for larger diameter bullets .454. Oversize lead bullets ran great in them, but not jacketed.

[spook]

Tightloop, you might take a look at a standard S&W 625 4" .45ACP. The older ones are still around (without the lock).

One reason I would stick to a 625 is the moonclips. The 625 moonclips are cheap. 10mm and .38 super clips are expensive. Plus, I personally think a .45 reloads faster (those holes are pretty big).

You can shoot .40's in the 610 10mm BTW.

I have no experience with reloading .45 ACP to 125 PF, so I can't help you there, but it seems you know your way around reloading the .45 better than me anyway .

You might ask the folks on www.smith-wessonforum.com if they've seen the gun you want for sale somewhere.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I guess an important question is: Do you think the N-frame size revolver fits your hand. They are too big for me. I prefer the K-frame size and just use speedloaders. A model 10 3 inch heavy barrel with round butt took me to 2nd revlover in last years IDPA Nationals.

If you are dead set on a moonclip gun then an older 625 would be the best bet. Get one with a 3 or 4 inch barrel, do an action job and you are ready to go. S&W made all 25-2's with at least a 6 inch barrel. You would have to cut the barrel. The new mountain gun might be an option. I don't know if they have the lock on the side or not.

I use Hogue rubber grips on my revolvers. Very businesslike look.

Bill Nesbitt

[spook]

I think the problem with the N-frames for most people is not the size, but the weight. Especially with the 610 (50 oz.!!!). You could go for a lightened 625. 4"barrel and mill off the underlug. Or as Bill says, a 4"mountaigun (they are hard to find though.

[Flexmoney]

Might take a look at the rule books too. I don't know about IDPA, doesn't USPSA and/or IPSC say no external modifcations?

(I was suprised to hear Bill Nesbitt say that you could cut a barrel back to 4 inches in IDPA...thought that was against the rules?)

[spook]

Dunno about USPSA, but IPSC basically says:

- .354 bullet

- no external mods except cylinder latch, sights, grips (plating, checkering etc. allowed)

- aftermarket barrels if same lenght as factory

- can only shoot 6 rounds before reload

[Stu Love]

Flex-

For IDPA, I think you can cut your original factory barrel down to 4", but you are not allowed to remove the barrel and install a 4" factory barrel whether it is 'factory' or not... the gun has to either be manufactured with a 4" bbl or you can cut the bbl down. Stupid as hell... I can't see any reason for not allowing a barrel swap to 4''. I think this is correct, anyway. I'm stuck with a 5" bbl on my 625 that I can't use in IDPA, but until I start making some cash again I can't really justify forking up the money to buy a 4" gun or make mine 'worthy' for IDPA. I can see making a 4" limit on length, but disallowing a barrel swap is BS.

[spook]

Would anyone notice a swap ?

[Rufus The Bum]

It's very easy to decide. If you want to shoot both IDPA and USPSA, get the 625 in 4" The 610 uses both the .40 and 10mm cases, but I have yet to see a 610 that is faster than a 625 as far as reloads go. Don't quote me, but I think it is illegal in both IDPA and USPSA to replace a barrel with a different type ie....Length. Would anyone notice? Probably not, if done correctly. As far as lightening a revolver, it's a waste of money because a .45 at 165pf doesn't have much recoil and lets face it....No matter what you do to a revolver, it's still going to be slow. I have a 625 with a keylock and I don't understand what the big deal is, it has nothing to do with trigger pull.

[Bill Nesbitt]

In IDPA you are allowed to either cut the barrel OR replace it with another.

S&W rebarrels with a 4 incher and several gunsmiths are cutting them back. Either is acceptable in IDPA.

Bill Nesbitt

[Bill Nesbitt]

Stu, where did you get your information? It is not correct to the best of my knowledge.

Bill Nesbitt

[Stu Love]

Bill-

Apologies to all. You are right, I was flat wrong about that issue. That was an ignorant post I made, wish I could retract it now.

Just goes to show there's a big difference in being right and thinking you're right. Oh well, thanks for settin' it straight.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Stu, No problem. I was wrong once a long time ago too.

Bill Nesbitt

[Patrick Sweeney]

Ditto in USPSA. As long as it is a factory barrel, you can swap any which way you want. As for the 25-2, yes they were made mostly in 6.5", but there are a few special-order 4" and 8-3/8" ones out there. I'm sure Roy Jinks has at least one, if not two, of each.

If you are considering a barrel swap in the S&W .45, you must make sure you get a .45 ACP and not a .45 Colt barrel. The threaded section of the .45 ACP barrel is longer, to reach back to the shorter .45 ACP cylinder. The .45 Colt bbl won't reach unless you do some very tricky lathe work.

The really rare gun in this group is the 25-3. The Detroit Police Commemorative, an N frame in .45 Colt. But built on a .45 ACP-length cylinder. You could fit a spare cylinder in .45 ACP and shoot both.

[SteveHarris]

For IDPA, you can either shorten or replace the barrel with a factory barrel of 4” or less. For USPSA, I believe you can replace the barrel with any length factory barrel ever offered in that model. I just went through this same process of picking a moon revolver for IDPA and USPSA and settled on the 610 and shoot 40 S&W. 40’s shoot softer than a 45 and the fact that the 610 weighs a few ounces more than the 625 should soften it even more. I like a heavier gun for smoother transitions and less muzzle rise for faster splits. The draw might be a micro second slower but you should get lined up for your first shot faster than with a ‘whippy’ lighter gun. I bought a new 6.25” 610 barrel from S&W and they laser engrave each barrel (as ordered) to match your model. I plan to use the 6.25” in USPSA after trying IDPA with the original 4” barrel (the only length now offered).

In about two weeks I’m going shooting with a revolver hotshot (state champion) friend that shoots a 625. He is anxious to shoot the 610 and see for himself what he thinks. At this point he said he thinks he sees a 610 in his future I'll ask him to post his thoughts after he wrings out my new shooter

[SteveHarris]

Tightloop,

Below is some repetition but I hope this pulls it all togeather for you.

IDPA:

I just finished buying and setting up a new 610 for IDPA. I am shooting 40 S&W which is a standard option like shoting a 38 special in a 357 mag.The only barrel on a new 610 is a 4". IDPA does allow shorting a factory barrel but replaceing the barrel with a factory barrel (for that model) is not a "modification". There are many reason that barrels and other factory may need replacing... it's ok

USPSA/IPSC:

In USPSA you can replace the barrel with any factory replacement barrel that was ever offered as a standard option on that specific model. I bought a new S&W 6.25" 610 barrel to use later in USPSA. You can either shoot minor or major in Revolver Standard Division http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Rules14_2001.pdf . Therefore if you have a bunch of ammo loaded to 125 PF and you decide to shoot in USPSA you can shoot "minor".

The 610 is simply the 625 in 40 S&W/10mm. It only weighs a few ounces more than the 625 becase of the smaller bore in the barrel and non-fluted cylinder. It is well known that 40 S&W shoots with less recoil than 45 ACP which is why 45's are all but gone in USPSA Limited championships. Combine a few more ounces with the softer shooting 40 S&W and you have a 'smooth shooter'. This combination will help you with faster split times and transitions. I'm shooting MG 165 HP and they reload great.

If you get either a 610 or a 625 you will need a good trigger job, cylinder and action work to be more competitive. A good web site to see a list of some of this work is http://www.glenncustom.com/GenInfo.htm . Glenn just finished my 610 and I can sum it up as "SWEET" Also, Glenn got my work done 'in my lifetime'

The 610 is an outstanding choice

[spook]

[Major thread drift mode on]

It is well known that 40 S&W shoots with less recoil than 45 ACP which is why 45's are all but gone in USPSA Limited championships.

I disagree. It is well known that .40 guns have a higher capacity than .45 guns, which is why .45 are all but gone in limited, but constantly seen in limited-10.

Capacity is the big drawback, not recoil, or speed.

[Major thread drift mode off]

[Ron Ankeny]

The issue of K frame vs. N frame is one of both ergonomics and power factor. For IDPA (125 pf) I would shoot a K-frame in .38 Special with speed loaders. For me, the ideal revolver would be a heavy barrel model 10 (4 inch but I know Bill loves a 3 inch) with adjustable sights added and a set of custom Hogue grips built for my hands.

In IPSC you need to make major so enter the moon clip revolvers in .45 and .40 along with the larger frame. I shot a 610 Classic in 6.5 inch configuration for several months and subsequently sold it a pin slaying buddy of mine for a song. My 610 was a boat anchor of a pig with crappy internals but is shot scary accurate and the action wasn't bad once it was smoothed up. For IPSC I would use an older 6.5 inch 25-2 because the action can be tuned smooth as butter, the gun handles like a dream (the under lug and smaller bore of the 610 makes it tough to stop the swing) and the .45 is a bit faster to reload.

I honestly don't think there is a revolver that would be ideal for both games unless it would be an older 625 with a four inch barrel in the hands of a guy with decent eyesight. The new 610 revolvers are trash unless you have a good gunsmith work them over and most decent smiths would much rather work on an older model 25, lol.

[SteveHarris]

My new 610 came with a pretty nice trigger NIB and now, after it was tuned up, it's superb! The 625 and 610 internals are identical – no less or no more……. The main difference between the older N models and the current models is that the firing pin on the older models is dangling off the hammer and the new models use a separate floating firing pin (that is much safer for a carry gun). The difference is that the old dangle-pin hammer can be lightened and the spur removed. The new floating pin models need a little more mass in the hammer to propel the floating pin. I don’t believe the difference is detectable except maybe a Grand Master revolver shooter - - - - if then.

Single stack 45s with 10 round mags are seen at club shoots but not at the Nationals. The 40 is the current king of Limited and L10 because they shoot faster than a 45. The whole thing of shooting a 45 is a lot of fun but the competitive edge is in favor of the 40.

[Flexmoney]

The 40 is the current king of Limited and L10 because they shoot faster than a 45.

That is talk for a different thread.

Let's keep this one on track. Wheel-guns.