45ACP for the Standard Division

[Canuck63]

Hi all,

please cope with me if this topic will have me called all the names under the Sun by the shooters with 100s of matches under their belts(that will probably ), but I've just placed an order for two SVI guns for the next season and there’s something I’d love to discuss about the caliber of the guns I’ve ordered before the fitting of the barrels would start.

This year of 2008 has been my first year in FITDS (Italian IPSC) competition,and in 5 events I'd have made it to B from D (that granted me the slots to take part to the Italian Nationals),if it wasn’t for two matches that were marred by all sorts of mechanical troubles (and lotsa misses in the match held in my Club's very range ) that stopped me on my tracks at 59% …which thing I’ve put down to experience anyway !

The gun I’ve used has been a ADC Custom in .45ACP,a not very common choice of caliber for ISPC,as some may point out,but since I love this caliber so much I opted for this choice with no regrets whatsoever if not for the less rounds of ammo held by the 45 mags.That’s the only thing that puzzles me a bit as far as the choice of caliber for my next SVIs is concerned;the ADC magazines(built around a Para Ordnance frame)could held 15/16 rounds of ammo with an aluminum extended pad and that was enough to me,after all a shooter “argueing” with steel plates would soon sap the ammo supply of any magazine in any given caliber,be it a L10 or a 34 rounder,so that would be an answer,not to talk about the As that would have been Cs if it wasn’t for the big,neatly cut holes left by the 200 grainers I use !

As I’ve said above I’ve ordered two twin guns in 45 caliber,but I’d like to know if there’s a way to increase the capacity of the magazines to at least 15 rounds without using pads that wouldn’t be “kosher”,read the pistol not fitting inside the box!

I know that Arredondo makes followers that would allow for an additional round,increasing the total to 15 and that would be nice (15+1 in those “condition one” stages) but I’d love to know about more tricks to increase the capacity of the magazines without decreasing the reliability.

Yes...a .40 magazine would held a few more rounds and that would be something for a serious shooter,but looks like I don't feel myself comfortable enough shooting this caliber...after all I own a .40 SVI Competition that it's near-mint and that should speak volumes about the love affaire with the Forty-Five:I'm going to sell this gun to a bud to make place for the other guns,since in Italy we can only own six "sports" guns!

One more question;if it wasn't for the number of rounds...would there be any reason as to why the 40 would be a better choice?Not trying to be smart...just curious!It's probably me but I seem to handle better a 45Major than a 40Major.

Thank you for stopping reading and (hopefully) replying!

Greetings from a very rainy and snowy Italy

Manu

[trevoro]

Hey Manu,

I think you will find agreement that it is the number of rounds that gives the advantage to .40. In USPSA, target arrays are limited to 9 rounds. If you are only able to get 15 rounds in your mag, you will often have to reload between every array. Switch to .40 and you for sure get to shoot two arrays on one mag. I have only known one person who shoots .45 in USPSA Limited division. He made it to high B class at a club level and did very well there. I don't think there is a single top-level shooter anywhere shooting a .45 in Limited. I could be wrong.

It sounds like you love the .45. So do I!

[chirpy]

I have shot .45 in our limited division since I discovered the then new Para frame kit. .40 wasn't invented yet. I spent way too much $$$ on it but I had too much $'s and not enough sense. I'm 62 and don't have enough money to buy an all new full house .40 but I am about to buy a used Para in .40 and 6 new mags because...

Do I feel disadvantaged, yes sometimes, but I'm not going to win or move up in class so I will have fun with whatever I shoot. It sounds like you are very comfortable with .45 and don't feel undergunned with it so until it becomes a problem to you stick with it and enjoy.

Richard

PS: I tried SS again and love it so I might go that way in .45, what else.

[redmanfixit]

" I'm going to sell this gun to a bud to make place for the other guns, since in Italy we can only own six "sports" guns!"

For starters, My thanks to you for reminding me and possibly others that may follow this thread about some of the freedoms we enjoy here. I am a .45 ACP fan and I shoot single stack IPSC as well as IDPA. The main reason reason that many of the shooters I have spoken with choose .40 seems to be recoil. There is the capacity point as well but most of the folks I have spoken to feel that .40 allows them to get back on target quicker than .45. Of course it is possible to tune a gun to shoot any combination of propellant and projectile that lets you make major PF, in most any caliber that is practical for the sport. Felt recoil and target reacquisition are the two reasons offered to me as often as not when folks I shoot with are expounding on the advantages of .40 over .45. It seems that, for me, my hand must be about the size of John Browning's as most of his designs and those that are like his, fit my hand as if they were made custom for me. Hope this is of help. I also hope you have fun with your new equipment. There's just something about a 1911 A1 in .45 ACP.

[Canuck63]

Trevor,Richard and Redman,

thanks a million for chiming in with your commments guys !

Trevor,you hit the nail on the head with the ammo thing...15/16+1 rds against 17,18 or even 19+1 is a con in a way,but it's also true that a well placed hit on a plate is worth one or even two misses with a 18 rounders...and then the ammo advantage goes to the dogs!I nearly made to B in the Italian Championship and that means competing against the likes of Adriano Santarcangelo who finished 7th at Bali;Taran Butler was 8th and Midgley 6th)..in the last stage of the last match that he won in Italy I made a 72%...clearing a jam while running out of a barricade...a little thing for many but a thing I've been proud of..after all it was my fourth REAL match !Some say that the 45 is more punishing recoilwise than the 40 but then again,even when I had a mint SVI in .40 I kept on competing with my "anti-tank gun" or "pistol/shotgun" as my buds call it!Dunno...it's probably me but I feel comfortable with the bigger caliber...maybe because since January 2007 nearly 60k rds of 45 went thru my guns while a mere 3500 were shot with the .40 !

Redman...the oddest thing is that you can actually own as many handgunsguns (no restriction for rifles and shotguns) as you like in Italy but only use six,I mean...as soon as you buy an extra gun you've got to ask for a collector's licence...put the "extra" gun(s) in your collection (which is absolutely virtual!) and only use the ones that are outside of the collection!You must remove a "vital" part from (barrel,slide,firing pin,bolt...you name it)the guns in your collection and you're not allowed to keep the ammo in their calibers...if you have pistols in those caliber(s) outside the collection then you can keep the ammo but again cannot use the gun in your collection...confusing ?Yes...and then some!

Cheers

Manu

[Nik Habicht]

In USPSA, target arrays are limited to 9 rounds.

Ummm, that's eight rounds per position/single view. See Section 1.2.1 of the current rulebook.....

I resisted the .40 for quite a while, but finally found it manageable downloaded to 170 or so. Capacity is where it's at, but i know of people who shoot limited minor with a .38 Super --- so if you love the .45, have fun....

[slip knot]

38 sup minor, in limited, limited 10. Great fun, and works well

[Canuck63]

It would be nice to have a limited minor/Lten in Italy as a class in its own right...when you declare bullet weight and PF before the match you'll nevertheless rub elbows with the rest of the competitors using a major PF...and that would mean that with your rat f@rts you'd have to make all As to have a chance to do well!That would be interesting though...I'd like to try it myself at a club match; 10lbs recoil spring and 200 grainers over less that 4 grains of N310!

Talking about felt recoil...as far as I'm concerned I find the recoil of the 40SW unpleasant,and I can choose any kind of recoil reducer for my SVI!

Many Tanfoglio shooter (even "works" ones) have often to make do with 15/16 rounders yet they do extremely well...I think that you have to compensate with other skills,i.e. fast mag changes at the right time and place!

[Flexmoney]

SVI's in 40 have resale value. SVI's in 45...not so much.

SVI's in 40 are reported to function better than in 45. (Reported, by our forum host...who knows a thing or two about them.)

The capacity advantage that 40 has should not be ignored. Going one for one (clean) on steel isn't great reasoning. Extra rounds, beyond make up shots, give the shooter extra options on how to manage a course of fire.

Cost is a factor...well it might not be for some...but, it is a factor. Jacketed 45 bullets are expensive compared to 40. And, here in the states...once-fired 40 brass is in greater supply, thus relatively cheaper than 45 brass.

It sounds like you can afford to do as you wish. The SVI guns come with the interchangeable breech face. Why not have SVI fit an extra barrel in 40 and buy the mags to go with it? With the magazines and the fit barrel...you would effectively have both 40 and 45 as options in one gun.

[Nemo]

+1M what Flex said.

I understand the "love" of the caliber. It's what I've used in competition for the past 3 years in my revo and my skinny gun, but those are different games. In USPSA Limited and IPSC Standard, .40 is king. Why by choice start at a disadvantage?

Good luck!

[d906670]

I use a para p14 with dawson +4 base pads P/N 005-004 so have 18 round on reload 19 start in 45acp.

Edited December 20, 2008 by d906670

[Chuck D]

I used an SV in 45 for about 6 plus years in Limited and L10 division. Even though I was "limited" to 15 plus 1 in the gun...I still managed to make it into Master class

in Limited and was knocking on Master's door in L10 when I decided to park the gun and focus on other interests. I eventually sold the gun and mags to a guy

in Florida for a decent price.

The moral of the story is that if your REALLY serious about climbing the classification ladder and competing with the top 2 percent of the guys and gals

that consistantly win big matches...the 40 is the optimal choice. If your interests lie in shooting for fun, seeking new challenges, and being "true" to your favourite

caliber...build a gun in 45 and have at it.

When I do get the chance to shoot a bit of IDPA...I shoot in SSP Division with a downloaded G21 Glock... if that tells you anything about the adaptability of the 45acp.

Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can't do well enough with a double stack 45 to be a threat at ANY match you decide to shoot.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Chuck D

[SharonAnne9x23]

the .40 has one more advantage over the .45 that has not been mentioned, torque. The .45 twists the pistol harder than the .40. It is more noticeable when comparing the .45acp and the .38Super, as happened in the 80s when the Super gained prominence in comp guns.

[Duane Thomas]

Another reason to choose .40 over .45 in a double stack: feed reliability. Years ago Brian Enos put forth a post in which he ranked, in his experience - which is immense - just how easy it is to make a 1911 feed with 100 percent reliability, taking into account the magazine type and cartridge. From easiest to hardest, it went like this:

Single stack .45

Double stack .40

Single stack .40

Double stack .45

[Chuck D]

owned my SVI for roughly 7 years. Used it in matches exclusively for 6 years at roughly 8 to 9 thousand rounds a year.

the gun NEVER experienced a failure to feed or eject.

used both bone stock and Dawson Precision tuned magazines.

other than magazine capacity...the 40 and 45 are practically equal in performance when placed in a top shooter's hands.

.....

Edited December 20, 2008 by Chuck D

[Canuck63]

Words fail me guys...this forum is the greatest,period!

d906670,I do have the Dawson pad on some of the magazines of my standard built around a PO frame but they're a big no-no here in Italy..I know that back in the States you can do as you please (within certain limits,of course!) in matches held at a National level,but here in Italy the International rules apply even at a club level (I kid you not!),including them %$&%$ boxes!I have PO magazines fitted with custom made alu pads increasing the capacity to 16 rds (after "abusing the inner thickness of the base of the pad,the follower and the spring) and the gun barely fits into the box!

Anyway...I've opted for two .40 guns and I'll probably have a 45 barrel fitted on my practice gun just for the sake of it...cannot bear the thought of not having a 45 option !

I've had a friend who's an Italian top shooter have a go with my 45 in its actual tune-up(four buffers and a variable 13lbs Wollf)..told him to shoot it as fast as his trigger finger would allow him to do and it couldn't believe that the gun would perform like that...200 rds shot at a near-smg rate without a failure and near to perfect targer re-acquisition...to quote his words at least!

Ok...let's start my first serious saeson in Limited(Standard) with a 40...I'm confident I'll find a lot of help here as far as tuning-in and realoads are concerned!

I wish y'all a great weekend!

Manu

[dirty whiteboy]

Another reason to choose .40 over .45 in a double stack: feed reliability. Years ago Brian Enos put forth a post in which he ranked, in his experience - which is immense - just how easy it is to make a 1911 feed with 100 percent reliability, taking into account the magazine type and cartridge. From easiest to hardest, it went like this:

Single stack .45

Double stack .40

Single stack .40

Double stack .45

I would be willing to loan Brian my G-21 with 18 rd mags to update that test.

[Duane Thomas]

Years ago Brian Enos put forth a post in which he ranked, in his experience - which is immense - just how easy it is to make a 1911 feed with 100 percent reliability

[dirty whiteboy]

yea, it's a different animal.

[Nemo]

Anyway...I've opted for two .40 guns and I'll probably have a 45 barrel fitted on my practice gun just for the sake of it...cannot bear the thought of not having a 45 option !

Wise decision! As for having a 45, get one as God intended them to be: A Single Stack 1911.

[Duane Thomas]

Definitely something to be said for that advice.

[Canuck63]

To Duane,Nemo and the others who have chimed in...thanks a lot for reading and helping yours truly and see clearer !

Manu

[Jody Waring]

I am not totally up to date with what everyone is using in USPSA, but whats up in L-10, and Singlestack? Are there many guys doing well using the .45 in these divisions or is .40 king? I recently had my dad's single stack .45 Open gun made over into a standard gun, we only have 10rnds in Canada anyway, and decided to stay with the .45 as I already have it, have lots of brass and bullets and plan on having at it in the spring. As far as being competitive, I don't have to worry about mag capacity here, but for one example a friend of mine has an STI Hi-cap in .45 and it is one of the nicest to shoot standard guns I have ever tried. I guess I would have to spend more time with a .40 to see a difference.

[Flexmoney]

45 is perfectly fine...especially in a single-stack...in the reduced capacity divisions.

You'll still have to look at brass and bullet costs. Around the local matches, 45 shooters tend to be more diligent about picking up their brass. Some shoot lead instead of jacketed bullets.

[Canuck63]

I am not totally up to date with what everyone is using in USPSA, but whats up in L-10, and Singlestack? Are there many guys doing well using the .45 in these divisions or is .40 king? I recently had my dad's single stack .45 Open gun made over into a standard gun, we only have 10rnds in Canada anyway, and decided to stay with the .45 as I already have it, have lots of brass and bullets and plan on having at it in the spring. As far as being competitive, I don't have to worry about mag capacity here, but for one example a friend of mine has an STI Hi-cap in .45 and it is one of the nicest to shoot standard guns I have ever tried. I guess I would have to spend more time with a .40 to see a difference.

I love the 45 and wouldn't have ventured into 40S&W territory if it wasn't because of the difference in mag capacity between the two when shooting a SVI(14/15 rounds against the 20 some shooter have in their mags thanks to custom,hand-made pads!).I've had a fairly decent match season with my ADC Standard (Limited) with 16 rounders and running my fave set up for the ammo I use consisting of a stack of three Wilson blue buffers and a 12,5lbs ISMI,turning it into a black and green mini-Grease Gun,but after returning to 40S&W I must say that I'm quite happy with this choice even if, to me at least,45 is king!Of course...shooting in Limited Ten is a different matter altogether...would have been the capacity of the magazine the only issue I'd have bought two 45 SVIs instead!