Pistol gripping issues

[Matt Griffin]

One big point that seems to go ignored somewhat is that adding tension to a muscle group sympathetically makes the nearby muscles also tense. You can reduce this with training and relaxation, neither of which are available to a starting shooter. So, although you may be gripping hard with your weak hand, you're probably also locking your weak wrist and forearm muscles like iron. This causes the gun to jump out of the rigid arm during recoil, since the strong thumb makes the strong hand come along.

It's a hard feeling to describe, but there should be a sensation of push in your arms, rather than lock. A decent analogy would be to do a pushup with locked elbows vs. with slightly bent elbows. It seems easier to sit on the locked joints, but what do you want to have when somebody drops a sack of flour on your back? Bent joints and tense, not locked muscles handle recoil.

H.

[Duane Thomas]

Guess I need mooooooooooooooooore practice.

We all do, always. No less a skilled shooter than Jerry Barnhart once told me, "You should finish every match always knowing there's something you still need to work on. I know I do."

[kimmie]

So who can tell me what I'M doing wrong????? - I use the classic 'IPSC' grip, thumbs forward and shoot a 1911 with ultra thin grips which fit my hands better - long fingers, small palms. Anyway, when I'm just shooting at paper - no drawing - I'm right on. We did an IPSC practice one nite and I shot from the low ready - no drawing. Again, right on. Next day, shot again, but from the draw, and everything was going left! Obviously it's a change in grip when I draw but I can't figure out what. The gun isn't jumping in my hand and I shoot factory .45's a lot. Without pictures of my grip - anyone have any ideas????? I've watched the Todd Jarrett video a million times and still can't figure it out!

Donna

[Duane Thomas]

The problem is that, when you have the time to set up your grip "just so" you're able to focus on not overgripping the gun, not snatching the trigger. But when you push yourself to go fast from the holster, that introduces tension into the overall technique, you overgrip the gun, and pull the trigger much harder, and with much more excess hand movement other than simply moving your index finger to pull the trigger, than you would if you were shooting not from the draw. The key, IMHO, is to lay off live fire for awhile and do a LOT of dry fire practice from the draw, focusing on placing the minimum amount of force necessary into gripping the gun (whatever you deem that to be) and pulling the trigger, until you've replaced the bad habits with good habits. When you get back to the range (after much, MUCH dry fire), start slowly at first, practicing executing the new techniques you've learned during dry fire. Then slowly ramp up the speed, focusing on proper execution.

[2MoreChains]

The gunrighter is write! I spent a lot of time this past week dry firing and concentrating mainly on my grip. The practice showed at yesterday's SC match. I was getting good hits with some of my fastest ever times. "Smoke and Hope" (or was it Hope and Smoke?) was my best, and the most fun.

The long distance stage was my worse. I know what I need to work on!

Edited January 5, 2009 by 2MoreChains

[kimmie]

The problem is that, when you have the time to set up your grip "just so" you're able to focus on not overgripping the gun, not snatching the trigger. But when you push yourself to go fast from the holster, that introduces tension into the overall technique, you overgrip the gun, and pull the trigger much harder, and with much more excess hand movement other than simply moving your index finger to pull the trigger, than you would if you were shooting not from the draw. The key, IMHO, is to lay off live fire for awhile and do a LOT of dry fire practice from the draw, focusing on placing the minimum amount of force necessary into gripping the gun (whatever you deem that to be) and pulling the trigger, until you've replaced the bad habits with good habits. When you get back to the range (after much, MUCH dry fire), start slowly at first, practicing executing the new techniques you've learned during dry fire. Then slowly ramp up the speed, focusing on proper execution.

This makes perfect sense. I knew I'd get my answer here. Dryfiring is something I don't do very much of even though I know it's important. O.K. Back to the basics. Dryfire - here I come!

Thanks

Donna

[Duane Thomas]

The gunrighter is write!

It happens occasionally.

[Duane Thomas]

Dryfiring is something I don't do very much of even though I know it's important.

One important thing differentiating good shooters from no-so-good shooters: good shooters do a hell of a lot more dry fire than live fire practice; with not-so-good shooters it's the exact reverse.

[kimmie]

Dryfiring is something I don't do very much of even though I know it's important.

One important thing differentiating good shooters from no-so-good shooters: good shooters do a hell of a lot more dry fire than live fire practice; with not-so-good shooters it's the exact reverse.

O.K. - ya got me - give me a couple of months - dry fire, dry fire, dry fire - I'm a gonna be one a those 'good shooters'!!!!!

[BSeevers]

Actually I feel live fire is great. Its necessary in my experience to progress. Make a plan and follow it to success.

If you want to hit high goals then I usually recommend 10 dryfires for every live rd in your early development. Thats way different than saying dryfire is the key to success. Its one of the tools to get you there. DVD's, books, mentors, drills, self filming, coaches and good equipment are great tools too. Rely on them all.

DF helps you get there easier and faster. Dry fire is not the "holy ark" to getting better. Everything is.

Somebody mentioned Todd J. I'll know he has millions and millions of dryfires to go with his millions of rds downrange. Thats one reason why he can do it better.

Edited January 6, 2009 by BSeevers

[Kaizer]

Some progress report. For the past two range sessions, both hands stick together!

Now I gotta practice to get the same grip everytime and do it fast.

[kimmie]

Actually I feel live fire is great. Its necessary in my experience to progress. Make a plan and follow it to success.

If you want to hit high goals then I usually recommend 10 dryfires for every live rd in your early development. Thats way different than saying dryfire is the key to success. Its one of the tools to get you there. DVD's, books, mentors, drills, self filming, coaches and good equipment are great tools too. Rely on them all.

DF helps you get there easier and faster. Dry fire is not the "holy ark" to getting better. Everything is.

Somebody mentioned Todd J. I'll know he has millions and millions of dryfires to go with his millions of rds downrange. Thats one reason why he can do it better.

All very good advice. And something I definately plan to implement. I've been shooting about 10 years now, IPSC for about 5 - and wondering why I seemed to stay at the same level. I figured it was because I didn't have the opportunity to get to the range and practice as much as some of the really good shooters do. Now I realize that I don't need to get to the range - I can do this in my living room aiming at the bad guys on T.V.! (And yes, it's a safe area behind my T.V. ) I teach basic pistol safety and one thing I preach is developing 'muscle memory'. Too bad I haven't practiced what I preach! Or maybe I have, and developed 'bad' muscle memory. It's time to fix that.

Thanks for the kick!

Donna

[Matt Griffin]

The gunrighter is write! I spent a lot of time this past week dry firing and concentrating mainly on my grip. The practice showed at yesterday's SC match. I was getting good hits with some of my fastest ever times. "Smoke and Hope" (or was it Hope and Smoke?) was my best, and the most fun.

The long distance stage was my worse. I know what I need to work on!

For anything other than a 5yd hoser target, you should be feeling the details in your trigger during the press. The eyes confirm the sights are aligned, the brain presses the trigger, and your attention is on both. I've recently made some breakthroughs on this, and I find that I have to feel the trigger through the entire press or the shot will wander. This suits me fine, however, since suddenly my calls are accurate and I'm seeing the sight lift and return better than ever.

H.

[2MoreChains]

Thanks for the insight. I would agree about feeling the trigger. The thing I changed was my strong hand grip. Based on what I read on other threads, I relaxed my SH and bore down more on my WH (30-60, 40-60?). I felt like that gave me much more tactile feeling in my trigger finger (maybe more blood flow to my index finger? ), and allowed me to break the trigger straight back w/ out any pulling left (my earlier problem).

What made me realize the dry firing was paying off was during the Smoke and Hope stage. I was trying to motor through it so fast that all my focus was on the front sight and driving the gun that I wasn't really concentrating on my grip. But the grip was there in the subconscious thanks to all the repetitive practice. I feel like I have my own little break through, so need to keep up the practice and apply it more.

Thx for all the help. Learnin' lots here!

Edited January 7, 2009 by 2MoreChains

[Duane Thomas]

I wasn't saying that dry fire is any sort of holy ark that will give you everything you need all by itself. I was saying that the number of dry fires should far outstrip the number of rounds put downrange. I'll stick by that.

[TISCHLJ]

I understand. . . I have small hands, short fingers. Left eye dominant and rt handed.

I shoot pistol thumbs fwd isoceles stance(uspsa) and rifle left handed as my rt eye is no good.

Dry fire helps alot.

When you go to the line at a uspsa match, take 2 or 3 trigger pulls at your target as you relax breathe so you can index your sight and relax to shoot.

Remember, thinner grips may translate into more recoil so there is a fine line between a just right grip and one that is too thin to absorb recoil- the "ol diminshing returns issue. . .

I shoot uspsa s/s with regular grips and a short STI trigger and LTD with a Roupe reduced grip/STI grip. . .and a regulat STI trigger. .

Sometimes you can turn this into an advantage at 3gun. .. .I sling the rifle to shoot lh and the pistol is free on the rt side,. . . no sling interferance. . .

hope this helps- keep practicing. . . .

[rjkelso]

This a very helpful thread. I have a question.

If I am using the correct thumbs forward grip with good weak hand grip panel contact. And my weak (support) hand is tight up under the trigger guard. Is my support pinky finger (at it's base) making hard contact with the bottom of the handgun grip forcing the camming action?

Seems like it's there but not pressing, just making contact.

I hope my question makes sense.

Thanks,

Rick

[Duane Thomas]

It does make sense. While I'll grant that it may be different for people with differently shaped hands, I also find the support hand little finger is "just there", forming a part of the grip but not pressing hard against the frontstrap.

[rjkelso]

Thanks for the affirmation, and your advice in this thread it has been a good one for me. I want to make big strides in my shooting in '09.

Rick

[Duane Thomas]

Yer welcome.

[kimmie]

Dryfiring is something I don't do very much of even though I know it's important.

One important thing differentiating good shooters from no-so-good shooters: good shooters do a hell of a lot more dry fire than live fire practice; with not-so-good shooters it's the exact reverse.

Update - even though I have only concentrated on dryfiring for less than a week - I noticed an incredible difference tonite at an IPSC practice - I've been coming home from work and spending about a half hour practicing my draw and dryfiring at everyone I don't like on T.V : . concentrating on my front sight, I've been focusing on my grip and how it feels - I mean, really feeling the gun in my hand and where everything is touching. I've been concentrating on where my finger goes on the trigger and how it feels when I squeeze it. I memorized how the gun felt in my hand when I positioned it from the low ready and made sure it felt the same way when I drew from the holster. I readjusted the cant and angle of my holster to assure this happened. And then I practice another 15 or 20 minutes in the morning before I go to work. Tonite at practice, I tried to make myself concentrate on those things, and not think about being fast and about my scores. And I got compliments on good, smooth runs - good reloads, AND good hits. Hmmmmmm, might be something to this after all!

Thanks so much for the kick.

Donna

Edited January 10, 2009 by kimmie

[Duane Thomas]

No charge.

[boz1911]

I wasn't saying that dry fire is any sort of holy ark that will give you everything you need all by itself. I was saying that the number of dry fires should far outstrip the number of rounds put downrange. I'll stick by that.

That's my policy and for some reason I seem to be more creative when dryfiring. I have developed practice routines that address the weaknesses in my game.