HHF and the Classification System

[Chills1994]

I don't need to compare myself against Production shooters who are 835 miles away. I'll never compete against them.

And even I did compete against them, it's not like the results are broken out by class within a division anyways. The way they are posted to the web now it might as well be "head's up! run whatchya brung" within a division.

If trips to the prize table are broken out by first A, second A, first C, third D, what have you, it would make more sense, to me anyways, to have all the Production GM's listed on the first page by order of finish. The second page is all the M's, again, by order of finish. Then A's on the 3rd page, and so on and so forth.

If people still want the overall within division page posted on USPSA.org, fine, just have that another click or a couple of clicks away.

I only care about what my ranking is when the local club results get posted to the web, even if they are combined results.

If some people are so hot in the pants about the classifier system and comparing themselves to people a half a continent away, then let someone put on an 18 stage all classifier Area match.

Let's see how many people sign up for that.

How 'bout an all classifier Nat's type of event?

Steel challenge type matches seem to do just fine without a classification system (for now ).

And so does 3 gun.

If I wanted to see how I compare against other people at stand and deliver type shooting, there is already a venue for that. It's called bullseye .

[Jim Norman]

Chills,

We get it, you don't like classifiers or the system. easy answer, sign up as U you shoot for top spot only.

You say also that you will never compete against another Production shooter 835 miles away. You don't go to Nationals? or Area Matches?

Jim

[Chills1994]

Jim Norman wrote:

You say also that you will never compete against another Production shooter 835 miles away. You don't go to Nationals? or Area Matches?

NOW LOOK!..

No... really... go back up there and re-read what you just wrote ^^^.

That's not exactly what I said.

This is what I wrote:

I don't need to compare myself against Production shooters who are 835 miles away

which was my way of saying, AGAIN, I don't put much stock in the classification system.

You haven't been following closely enough either because I wrote this also:

sslav wrote this about the Single Stack Nat's results:

QUOTE

Anyone who came in above C class % in that match is at least a B class in another division (and most of them are now at least a B in single stack).

Hey, now! I resemble that remark. Yeah, I am/was a B in production when I shot the Single Stack Nat's as a C classed shooter. I still ended up in the bottom one hundred.

I'm still (stuck?) in C class in Single Stack, by the way.

Yeah, I shoot area, nat's and sectional matches.

Who is gonna come from 835 miles away to shoot the Ill-annoyed sectional??

You guys are really, really beginning to put the bug in my ear.

I might just sign up at local matches from here on out as open, unclassified, and shoot my Beretta 92, non comped, non optic sighted, non major PF'ed gun with 10 round mags until I make it to B in open.

Then when the time is right I will go sign up for an Area or Nat's level match as B in Production and a'yup, sandbagg my way to first place B class Production and "earn" my trip to the prize table.

Just to prove my point.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Chills1994

[sslav]

I might just sign up at local matches from here on out as open, unclassified, and shoot my Beretta 92, non comped, non optic sighted, non major PF'ed gun with 10 round mags until I make it to B in open.

Then when the time is right I will go sign up for an Area or Nat's level match as B in Production and a'yup, sandbagg my way to first place B class Production and "earn" my trip to the prize table.

Just to prove my point.

Knock yourself out. Not sure what this would prove.

[Coolduckboy]

I might just sign up at local matches from here on out as open, unclassified, and shoot my Beretta 92, non comped, non optic sighted, non major PF'ed gun with 10 round mags until I make it to B in open.

Then when the time is right I will go sign up for an Area or Nat's level match as B in Production and a'yup, sandbagg my way to first place B class Production and "earn" my trip to the prize table.

Just to prove my point.

Have fun with that. Let me know how long it takes you....

[Chills1994]

or Limited 10, minor

[Chills1994]

sslav wrote:

Knock yourself out. Not sure what this would prove.

So far, you're proving to be pretty dense.

Do you always play devil's advocate this much in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

[Chills1994]

coolduckbuy wrote:

Have fun with that. Let me know how long it takes you....

Thanks, Man!

Nothing motivates me more than having someone tell me it can't be done.

Great, ya just gave me the kick in the britches I needed.

[Coolduckboy]

coolduckboy wrote:

Have fun with that. Let me know how long it takes you....

Thanks, Man!

Nothing motivates me more than having someone tell me it can't be done.

Great, ya just gave me the kick in the britches I needed.

Never said it couldn't happen, Just saying it might take awhile. BUT it only too me a total of 6 months to make "A" Class from "C" class in limited. so, never know.

[Jim Norman]

It would prove that you are PDG with a pistol to make B open today using a 9mm minor iron sighted production legal gun.

Jim

[sslav]

sslav wrote:

Knock yourself out. Not sure what this would prove.

So far, you're proving to be pretty dense.

Do you always play devil's advocate this much in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

You need to look up the term "devils advocate". It does not mean what you think it does. And I still ask you to explain what you are trying to prove? Because the flaw you are pointing to is once again with a prize table, not with the classification system. And you are yet to answer my question - how will getting rid of classifications help USPSA?

Slav

[CHA-LEE]

There will never be a PERFECT way to run the classification system on an nationally participated activity such as Practical Shooting. There will always be many variables and "one off" situations that cause loop holes in the system. Given how the classification system is currently setup I would venture to say that it accurately ranks the vast majority of us correctly based upon our skill level compared to others. Can things be done differently or better to make the classification system even better? Sure. But that would be more of an effort to stave off edge cases verses needing to rewrite the basis of the classification system because it is broken.

The thing I think that many people forget is that the USPSA classification system will always be a work in progress. There will always be group of shooters that can shoot certain classifier stages XX% better than 100%. There will always be a group of shooters that sandbag on classifier stages to keep their classification low. There will always be a group of shooters that grandbag classifier stages to artificially pump up their classification.

Do we really want to make the classification system biased to focus on these exceptions verses focusing on the masses? I don't know about you, but I think that the overall USPSA membership is better served by focusing on a classification system that works best for the masses.

Sure we all want to compare our shooting skills to others. Hell that’s a main reason why we participate in USPSA matches right? For the competition. You can't have competition and no rating system to segregate the different skill levels. But things need to be put into perspective.

Competitors in general are notorious for having an “If I can’t win, I don’t want to play” attitude. Then that transforms into “let’s change some rules so I segregate myself into a different class so I can win”. This is why we have 6 different gun divisions and then 6 more classifications within each of those divisions. Not to mention Senior, Super Senior, Law Enforcement, Military, Lady classes stacked even further on top of that. It’s all about being spoiled with a life of easily gained wins or bragging rights. It is rare to see someone pick a sport/class/division and choose to compete in the hardest level and take the lumps of getting their ass handed to them and receive no recognition for years on end until they actually earn the ability and experience to win against the best of the best. People want the easy win. They want to brag to their buddies saying that they finished first at the match last weekend. Even though they leave out the fact that they are coming up with that “win” by seeing that they were the top “C” class shooter in their division which had 10 shooters total and he really finished 7th overall. Whatever floats your boat I guess, but I have seen it happen.

I am new to practical shooting and from what I have seen so far both in person and what I have researched, the current Classification System works. Will it work in its current configuration forever? No. But that is why the people at USPSA revisit the validity of the system regularly. I have faith in USPSA to make the right decisions on making changes to the classification system for the good of the masses. Why is it so hard for other people to have faith in letting USPSA do what they are paid to do?

[Ron Ankeny]

I am new to practical shooting and from what I have seen so far both in person and what I have researched, the current Classification System works.

In most cases that is true. I am one of those cases where the system really is questionable. I used to get sooo pissed over this issue, until I realized the system can't be 100 reliable for everyone. As in any set of statistics, we just need to trim the outliers.

[professor]

Over the years, the Classification system has been tweaked pretty good, but like any system based on human performance, the results are not going to be consistent from day to day, or month to month.

If you've been in USPSA for more than 10 years, you can get back to before there were 5 divisions. When the 3 "new" divisions [L10, Pro, Rev] were added, the HHFs were pretty much taken as a percentage of Ltd HHFs [1999 CMs]. As additional data sets were added, the percentages were adjusted for the new divisions, but HHFs were still based on Ltd HHFs [2003 CMs]. Finally, after years of complaints, the 2006 CM HFs were based on results from shooters actually shooting the equipment of the divisions! [Many of the HHFs were set as the HHF achieved by the top shooter in each division at a major match] Then the 2008 CMs were generated, mainly from Single Stack National results the previous year, and we were back to percentages for the other divisions.

Very little revamping of HHFs have been done, most recently for some 2006 classifiers where the HHFs for the divisions were somewhat inconsistent.

In general, the older classifiers in Open and Ltd [and L10] have been overtaken by shooters using better equipment developed over the years.

In the new divisions, L10 and Pro ended up with achievable HHFs, while Revo shooters got screwed by many classifiers that required that division's shooters to perform reloads that were not required in any other divisions. "Madness" [03-08] and "Seven" [08-04] immediately pop into mind. For years, Jerry Miculek was the only GM in revolver, mainly because the HHFs were not realistic in most of the classifiers being shot, and Jerry got his rating from winning the Nationals.

Given the various sources of HHFs over the years, you can understand that the HHFs for many of the new division classifiers were not physically achievable by mortal men. [Jerry Miculek is in a category by himself, and he rarely shoots the classifiers anyway]. And other revo shooters were hard-pressed to score within 10% of Jerry at a major match, so that it was impossible to move up by outshooting him head to head. The realistic HHFs of the 2006 series finally opened up the system for revo shooters to attain GM status, and that has increased the opportunities for other shooters to advance in rank.

Take a look at your own classifier scores. Once you get up to A class, you'll likely see more and more of your classifier scores being discarded as too low to count. Attaining a classifier score that will more you up gets more difficult, but at least discarding those scores where your speed exceeded your skill keeps you from moving backwards. That's the bootstrap function built into the system... classifiers more than 5% below the range of your current classification are discarded, so they don't pull down your average. Then all it takes is a good string of 3 or 4 classifiers scored in the next class or above, and you ratchet yourself up in class.

Shoot enough so you can compare your results on the same classifiers shot back through the years, and you'll get a good idea if you are progressing. Comparing your results in one classifier this week against a different classifier last week and you're comparing apples and oranges. Different skills required by the classifiers means that you are very unlikely to perform to your class level on every one.

Bottom line, forget about the classifications and just shoot for the enjoyment of it.