Personal Liability

[RePete]

When my insurance was renewed in July, I continued with 2 million.

My broker, who's a very good friend, put me onto 2 mil about 6 years ago.

[Carmoney]

Merlin, please pardon me for butting in with another question but,

Would one get a separate umbrella policy and then also carry a minimum auto liability as required by their state?

Every umbrella policy I've seen requires that you maintain a certain level of underlying liability coverage for both your auto and homeowners, usually more than the "standard" (but in my opinion, insufficient) 100,000/300,000 limits.

Umbrella policies are designed and underwritten to be excess coverage that will only kick in when a catastrophic claim situation arises.

[Merlin Orr]

Excellent info here.... I am really rethinking my coverage package. The uninsured motorist is an huge problem here. Add the local pastime/culture of heavy beer drinking and the machismo driving style of young males...... The thought about having the high UM/UIM limits really "fits" me as I am naked of any health insurance or benefits.

Would one get a separate umbrella policy and then also carry a minimum auto liability as required by their state?

Good question...?

Merlin,

not even catastrophic inpatient only insurance? How about long term care insurance? I'm loath to tell anyone how to live their life --- but medical costs aren't going down. Some version of health insurance --- at least to cover major stuff is essential, IMHO.....

Can't and will not. If the time comes and the situation is such... I will immolate myself on the steps of the capital building (insert picture of mouse flipping off eagle while clutched in talons.)

Yes, Really.

[Keith]

I purchased a 2 million umbrella policy a couple of years ago, too. My broker recommended it because of our family business but when I mentioned about traveling around the country shooting (and CCWing) he told me I HAVE to have it.

Carmoney's got me curious though. I'll have to go back and see if I can understand the policy. If not I have a couple lawyer friends that are also CCW instructors that I'll have read it over.

[Neomet]

Excellent info here.... I am really rethinking my coverage package. The uninsured motorist is an huge problem here. Add the local pastime/culture of heavy beer drinking and the machismo driving style of young males...... The thought about having the high UM/UIM limits really "fits" me as I am naked of any health insurance or benefits.

Would one get a separate umbrella policy and then also carry a minimum auto liability as required by their state?

Good question...?

Umbrella policies require certain minimum underlying limits, usually $100,000/$300,000. I've seen higher required underlying limits but never lower.

[Neomet]

I purchased a 2 million umbrella policy a couple of years ago, too. My broker recommended it because of our family business but when I mentioned about traveling around the country shooting (and CCWing) he told me I HAVE to have it.

Carmoney's got me curious though. I'll have to go back and see if I can understand the policy. If not I have a couple lawyer friends that are also CCW instructors that I'll have read it over.

As Mike did a great job of pointing out, and which I didn't even mention, it is not just the policy that needs to be looked at but also the complaint (which you won't see until after the shooting) and actually also the state in which the action is filed. Duty to defend obligations do vary from state to state to some degree. As an example there is a fairly recent NY appellate level case that held that even if the plaintiff attorney pleads the case based on an allegation of negligence on the part of the shooter (which is how most plaintiff attorneys will attempt to get around the "occurrence" language in the policy) if the person who used the gun has stated that he meant to shoot his attacker, even in justified self defense, then his insurance carrier does not have a duty to defend or indemnify him.

My .02 would be to do as Mike suggested and have an attorney who specifically does this type of work read your policy and tell you where you would probably stand should you be involved in a shooting. The other thing I would do is check out the NRA insurance because it is specifically designed to cover this type of event whereas your liability policy is not.

edited to add link to the NRA page that describes this insurance. http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefense.asp

Edited November 21, 2008 by Neomet

[Carmoney]

One more thing to keep in mind:

Your general liability coverage (included as part of your homeowners policy) and your personal umbrella policy will NOT cover liability involving your business interests. Anything you're doing to make money as part of a business venture, no matter how small it might be, will require a commercial general liability policy (and perhaps a commercial umbrella policy) in order to provide coverage.

[kgunz11]

I shared this thread with a friend that is in the legal department with one of the countries biggest insurance companies. His response was:

There is some really good information in the thread and some really bad advise. Bottom line if a person has assets to protect, a PUP policy is the way to go. Affords your additional liability protection and indemnification over and above both the protection afforded by your auto liability policy and the liability policy that is part of your homeowners.

The really bad advice is from the defense attorney who is telling people that if you are invovled in a self defense action, you insurance company will defend. This issue is state by states. Some states have ruled that in the case of self defense, the insurance carrier has to defend, but not responsible for any judgement against their insured. Other states have held that an injury inflicted as a result of a self defense action is an intentional act. Intentional acts are not covered under the liability policy, so no defense would be provided.

There are insurance companys who sell insurance to specifically cover legal actions both criminal and civil that arise from a self defense action. The insurance is real real pricy unless a gun club can buy is as a group policy for it's members.

[chp5]

As Matt says a $1,000,000 umbrella policy makes a lot of sense.

Word

[gino_aki]

I was listening to one of those "talking head" legal advice radio shows and the caller was wondering if she should file a suit against the person on behalf of her son and the host basically told her that even though she had an excellent case as described, if she were to obtain a judgment in favor, the defendant would probably file for bankruptcy and her son would get nothing.... I remembered this because it was a car accident case and the son had run up about half a mil in medical bills. I'm pretty sure laws vary from state to state and the recent rewrite of the federal bankruptcy law probably changed things too, but I'm wondering if someone like me who's already in debt up to my ears really has to worry about affording an umbrella policy which I can't anyway.