Accidental Discharge of AR in safe area at match toda

[sirveyr]

"As an RO/SO if there is a problem with unload and show clear with a weapon/firearm you don't let that firearm leave the line until it is cleared...period."

That was kinda my take on it all along. Jaxshooter makes a decent point, too, about disassembling a jammed firearm on the line before taking it out of the hot zone.

This firearm was cleared and flagged (by me) at the line.

The gun did not malfunction at the line, nor did it leave the line hot!

He was contacted later in the day and everything has been sorted out.

The "issues" that he was having earlier in the match were shooter induced. The gun seemed to be working fine, but he was not used to operating this newer rifle.

[bigbrowndog]

As to flags being the answer to gun problems regarding transport around the range,......................The best common sense answer I've ever seen was "do we require a flag in your pistol after the stage is finished????" NO!!

Flags do not keep rounds from finding their way into guns, and when you walk around a pistol match how often do you actually consider whether or not a holstered pistol has a round in the chamber????? Personally, NEVER!!

Flags do not keep people from waving guns around in all directions, KNOWLEDGE, COURTESY, ATTENTION, and COMMON SENSE are what keep guns safe, Cases, flags and such are merely feel good antics.

If a person is going to ignore or forget safety rules there is nothing an RO/SO can do at the time, after the fact it should be up to the MD to determine if the person forgetful, absent minded or arrogant, and take action based on the safety of the other competitors.

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

What Trapr said.

As a general rule I find the gun handling at most 'outlaw' 3-gun matches to be superior. People generally find a berm and maintain muzzle discipline. Not that there are not lapses, but I have seen the rifling as often at a USPSA match as at a three gun.

I do like the idea of a flag. I prefer muzzle down as bad as a oops is muzzle down, muzzle up makes it happen a mile or so away from the range.

The idea of a rack at each stage is good, but do you then require the guys with carts to rack?

Jim

[Merlin Orr]

I really like what Jim just said about finding a berm and maintaining muzzle discipline. I know it seems a contradiction of terms but I have seen several "safe"(er) ADs....

When having a problem make damned sure you weapon is pointing in a "safe" direction. Berm from PB range or the ground.

I really like seeing someone while clearing, unloading, dropping the slide and hammer down taking exaggerated care to maintain proper muzzle direction. If there is a gun problem the RO and everyone around should be aware that the gun is in a dangerous condition. Should it "somehow go off" no one will need a change of skivvies. If the gun discharges perhaps it is a trip home but no one is physically harmed.

All of the above..IMO..applies to 99.9% of the shooters and situations you will see at a match. There may be the very rare person who needs/warrants an in the face safety lecture but it would take the extreme situation for me to feel it was appropriate.

....COURTESY, ATTENTION, and COMMON SENSE are what keep guns safe....

[Carlos]

they way I understand it is that you can have live ammunition in the safe area - just that you cant handle it or touch it in any way, eg loaded mags - am I wrong ?

You are correct.

On a related note:

-you may handle EMPTY magazines within the confines of the safety area - AND you can practice magazine exchanges within the confines of the safety area - provided all magazines are empty.

I rarely see safety areas with marked boundries.

Discussing this incident is worthwhile - IF it helps prevent such an incident in the future.

[nashvillebill]

Just to eliminate any confusion and correct me if I am wrong:

IDPA rules-No ammo in safe area.

USPSA rules-No ammo or dummy round handling in safe area.

[mike4045]

This a little of the subject. I just got back from a Carbine match. I knew going in that safety would be an issue.

There tends to be alot of shooters at this club who are new and inexperienced. The worst part is they encourage slings. To make it worse is that for the most part they are not trained on the proper use.

Lots of muzzle problems throughout the match. I enjoyed the shooting and the stages were pretty good. There are just to many spots to get into that helped create muzzle issues. I am undecided whether or not to shoot there again. I like carbine matches, but I was waiting for someone to tag off a round while trying to transition to a sidearm.

I did bring up there were lots of places where a pistol stage does not make a good carbine stage. Too many shooters were just too close to walls and barricades, causing problems when trying to move with a long gun.

Mike

[BlackSabbath]

Just to eliminate any confusion and correct me if I am wrong:

IDPA rules-No ammo in safe area.

USPSA rules-No ammo or dummy round handling in safe area.

And, in USPSA there can be no empty brass handled in the safe area.

[Religious Shooter]

This firearm was cleared and flagged (by me) at the line. The shooter took it upon himself to "work on it" in the safe area. He was "unaware" that ammo was not allowed in the safe area. The "no ammo in the safe area" is discussed at every shooters meeting, multiple times. After talking with him, he knew this, but he did it anyway. At that point, what can an RO do? I don't really want to assign someone the job of monitoring the safe area.

It sounds like when confronted he initially lied about it and claims he was "unaware" of the ammo rule. He then admits that he knew that there was a rule against it. So he's a liar.

Furthermore he knew it was wrong and yet he still did it.

This guy needs to be suspended for at least a year. I'd even go so far as to say that "we" don't need him around.

[bigbrowndog]

Let he who has NEVER made a stupid mistake cast judgment, otherwise let those involved DIRECTLY with the incident handle it.

Trapr

[Blaster]

When I pulled into the parking lot of the match from 40ft away I noticed a guy with his hammer cocked back on his 1911,I pulled down the window and said your hammer is cocked back and was told that he could not use holster snap unless hammer was cocked back.After

[Blaster]

continued from above. After a few minutes I convienced him it was more important to have the hammer down. One other thing, the SOs had everyone line up and load their shotguns(not the chammer) and put them on the table.the start was having shotgun in drop barrel. When one of the SOs was up he picked up loaded shotgun (chammer empty) and put it in the drop tube while shooters were still down range taping targets, this was after the AR discharge in safe area, buts thats ok. I was at NTI-10 when a RO was shot in stomach with SW40 cal Federal Hydroshock, he lived. The shooter was declared as he always seemed safe in the past.Its one thing to have a1911 that the hammer follows the slide and round goes downrange into berm, as compared to AR in safe area Blaster

[SA Friday]

they way I understand it is that you can have live ammunition in the safe area - just that you cant handle it or touch it in any way, eg loaded mags - am I wrong ?

You are correct.

On a related note:

-you may handle EMPTY magazines within the confines of the safety area - AND you can practice magazine exchanges within the confines of the safety area - provided all magazines are empty.

I rarely see safety areas with marked boundries.

Discussing this incident is worthwhile - IF it helps prevent such an incident in the future.

Carlos, it really depends on what part of the country you are in. In our area, designated and built safety areas don't exist. In the CO front range, every range I shoot at has pre-built safety areas that fit one or two shooter into it, NO AMMO signs, and are contructed out of 6x6's (railroad ties sometimes too) with a shelf and backed by a dirt mound. They are usually built into the end of the side berms. They're a PITA to build from what I hear, but damned if you are going to get anything short of a 50 BMG through one of them.

[fastshooter03]

I read this thread and it seems to me match directors should start a policy of recording on paper any incidence of discharge that was not intented from the person involved and any witnesses before they leave the range. If you're already doing it--Bravo!

If people are storming off the range in embarassment and nobody knows exactly what happened how are we going to learn from it to TRY and make future matches a little safer?

I know you can't stop stupid from happening but I think this needs to be taken more seriously.

I have never seen an AD off the line at a match in person but I was within range of the discharge at a gunshow in Fon Du Lac, WI a few weekends ago. It was not a good feeling.

Nick

[Jim Norman]

I am taking away from this discussion a couple things. One will be the likely addition of side markings and rear markings of the designated safe area. You will henceforth either be in or you will be out, there will be no room for discussion. Not a difficult thing to do really, can be as simple as three 2 x 4s laid on the ground. or as complicated as a railing. We already have sings that say safe table and no ammo.

Very rare that we have a question arise, but the side and rear boundary lines will eliminate any.

Jim

[Barrettone]

As to flags being the answer to gun problems regarding transport around the range,......................The best common sense answer I've ever seen was "do we require a flag in your pistol after the stage is finished????" NO!!

Flags do not keep rounds from finding their way into guns, and when you walk around a pistol match how often do you actually consider whether or not a holstered pistol has a round in the chamber????? Personally, NEVER!!

Flags do not keep people from waving guns around in all directions, KNOWLEDGE, COURTESY, ATTENTION, and COMMON SENSE are what keep guns safe, Cases, flags and such are merely feel good antics.

If a person is going to ignore or forget safety rules there is nothing an RO/SO can do at the time, after the fact it should be up to the MD to determine if the person forgetful, absent minded or arrogant, and take action based on the safety of the other competitors.

Trapr

Trapr,

I gotta (respectfully) disagree with you on this one. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between a slung/carried long gun and a holstered firearm. All gun retention devices in USPSA/IPSC COVER THE TRIGGER. A slung rifle has no such safety feature. As such, flags/mag blocks were introduced so that people could EASILY RECOGNIZE that a long gun did not have a live round in the chamber. I find GREAT COMFORT in seeing that yellow indicator. Now, that does not excuse competitors from exercising good muzzle discipline. However, I do think that it adds a necessary "layer of protection". Essentially, we need AT LEAST 3 things to go wrong to have a bullet hit a person. In this case (and not in any particular order):

1) Ammo being handled in the safe area.

2) Ammo inserted into the gun.

3) Unsafe muzzle direction. (Fortunately, this one wasn't broken...hence, no one was shot.)

For someone to get shot DURING A COF:

1) Breaking 180 (if range was cleared properly).

2) Finger in the trigger guard while not engaging a target.

3) Having an AD.

RO's are trained to catch the first infraction. If (God forbid), it gets to the second layer, they can still catch it. If it goes to the third level, someone is getting hurt.

So, you see, these "layers" are much-needed. We cannot rely on merely one or two layers of protection. Flags give us these protections for transport of long guns during a match:

1) Flagged gun (chamber unloaded).

2) Safe muzzle angle.

3) Finger not in trigger.

All three of these layers need to be observed. By disregarding one, it puts us one step closer to someone getting hurt. We need (at least) 3 layers...any less can have catastrophic consequences. Dealing with multigun or 3 gun matches takes a different breed of RO. I have found in my USPSA career that not all USPSA RO's are created equal, and the same goes for IDPA SO's. The problems that preloading, abondoning firearms, clearing multiple firearms at the end of a stage and transitioning guns during a COF can cause makes a difficult job even more difficult. For seasoned 3 gunners, it is easy to lose sight of that, as we take what we do for granted. But pistol-only matches are FAR EASIER to keep safe IMHO. There are even USPSA RMI's that cringe about working 3 gun matches due to the unique safety issues that arise at them. So please, take what I am saying as constructive. Flags are necessary, and do bring a valuable asset to the table, as do holsters (or gun retention devices if you prefer). You are correct that it STARTS with good muzzle discipline, but please don't dismiss the value of flags, as THEY DO keep a round from being in the chamber. They might not keep one out of the gun COMPLETELY (ie loaded magazine tube in a shotgun), but it still affords us that extra layer of protection.

Warmest Regards My Friend,

Jeff

Edited November 5, 2008 by Barrettone

[bigbrowndog]

So am I to understand that "if" (i really hate that word) a long gun had its trigger covered by some means whilst it was slung, that would be satisfactory?

I still do not see how having the trigger covered by any means, keeps your mind at ease for a pistol, but only a chamber flag gives you great comfort with a long gun.

I do not disagree that flags CAN show a clear chamber, but a covered trigger proves NOTHING about the chamber, it cannot be separate but equal.

I do not wish to HiJack this thread, so perhaps we should simply agree to disagree?

I hope to see you soon, Jeff..................Trapr

[JKSNIPER]

It is not so much a "flag" as it is an E.C.I. (Empty Chamber Indicator).

That yellow thingy sticking up out of an AR or M1-A, bolt gun, etc indicates that the weapon CANNOT have a round in the chamber.

It is physically impossible for 2 objects to occupy the same space at the same time so to answer your question I agree with Jeff.

Yes seeing that "flag" is a great comfort to me as well.

I agree with folks that have spoken on the subject of muzzle discipline.

Theres no excuse for a shooter being unsafe and waving his muzzle around just because theres an ECI in the weapon.

Years ago it was perfectly acceptable for you to take your rifle with the ECI in place and place it onto your shooting stool and then pick up the whole thing and walk with it. The weapon was horizontal and "captured" by the shooting stool.

Probably not good muzzle discipline but it was an accepted practice back in the day.

I know USPSA has a good safety record but I always wondered why they did not take a page from the highpower shooters and institute some type of ECI for handgun matches.

Can't have a round in the chamber if there is an ECI there.

JK

[Yar1180]

I must admit I almost/could of caused something similar.

I was RO'ing another shooter at a local 3 gun match. The shooter was having problems with his rifle. After his run I look in the chamber and thought the rifle was cleared. The shooter being a safe guy went to a gunsmith who was also shooting in the squad. The gunsmith was inspecting the rifle working the bolt back and forth and out pops a live round. I was embarassed and nearly crapped myself when I heard. We all talked about the situation and the wrong doing was all on me. Although it is more difficult to see a 223 in the chamber of a AR you really have to look all that much more carefully. I for sure look much much more carefully now, as well as everyone at that range now. Thank god the smith and shooter in question still followed safe gun handling rules and continuing to treat the rifle "as if it was loaded", kept it pointed in a safe direction, and re-checked the chamber before doing anything else with it.

At some matches they finish and show clear procedure involves showing clear, dropping the bolt, dry firing into the berm, then looking the bolt back. Might not be a bad idea to standize this for 3 gun/multi gun.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Yar1180

[davidwiz]

At some matches they finish and show clear procedure involves showing clear, dropping the bolt, dry firing into the berm, then looking the bolt back. Might not be a bad idea to standize this for 3 gun/multi gun.

Not sure if you are referring to USPSA 3-Gun matches, or not. But USPSA Rifle Rule 8.3.7 mandates that if the competitor is finished, the competitor must then close the bolt, pull the hammer (with the gun pointing in a safe direction) and then lock the bolt open.