EricW Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 I just got back from having a damned-near knockdown-dragout with a rude, incompetent, loudmouth FedEx counter agent. I was shipping a gun I just sold. FYI - my Dad was a pilot for FedEx and flew for years out the very same office I was shipping the package. So, just because they would know my name in case my package got searched/x-rayed, I decided to play by the rules and declare the firearm and insure it appropriately. [snotty Loudmouth B*&ch Mode ON] NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! You can't do that!!!! [/sLBM] Yes I can. It's within Federal law and Fed Ex policy. I checked. [snotty Loudmouth B*&ch Mode ON] NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! You can't do that!!!! That's illegal. [/sLBM] NO, it's NOT! I'm not stupid. I didn't drive down here to commit a felony on public record. I'm shipping it to a FFL dealer, here is a copy of his state and federal license. [snotty Loudmouth B*&ch Mode ON] NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! You can't do that!!!! [/sLBM] Goddammit!! Yes, I can. I am not ignorant. Get the damned policy out and read it. It's perfectly permissible. SLB finally acquiesces and admits I can indeed ship a handgun via FedEx. What's the point of even trying to play by the rules anymore? From now on, I'm just going to declare that I'm shipping granny's antique parcheesi set. Gawd, I'm so sick of this sh*t. I'm tired of being the pariah for all that's wrong with the universe just because I own a gun or want to do anything that involves a gun. I'm sick of petty tyrants that think they can make up their own goddamned rules to persecute gun-owners just because it's the PC thing to do and they know they'll either be rewarded for their behavior, or at least not reprimanded in any way. Finally, I'm totally pissed about the corporate mergers that got us to this point. There's really only four carriers left in America. Three of them no longer accept firearms. All of them are such gigantic, faceless monopolies that they couldn't give a rat's ass about me or my needs. WTF are we supposed to do when FedEx inevitably bans firearm shipments? I hate this sh*t. I hate this sh*t. I hate this sh*t. FedEx sucks. This is even worse than when they kept delivering all my packages including two laptops to Hewlett Packard, no matter how many complaints I filed. What a bunch of a-holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 But Eric, tell us how you really feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 DT - How do I really feel? It's a day later, and I'm still mad as hell. My Dad was a loyal FedEx employee (as a subcontractor, but effectively worked for FedEx), and we as a family were therefore loyal FedEx customers for nearly a decade and a half. We still have FedEx everything: coffee cups, teddy bears, you name it. But, in the end none of it matters. I'm just another annoyance to a facelesss Corporate America, just some worthless schmoe without a commercial account they have to waste time on. FedEx loathes the little customer, makes no pretenses about it, and makes sure I know it. And I hate the bastards for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Just a FYI, Some people think there's a federal law that says you have to inform the common carrier that you are shipping a firearm/handgun. This is ONLY true when NOT shipping to a FFL. So for the common case of shipping a gun off to your gunsmith, or selling a gun and sending it to the destination FFL, you are NOT legally required to disclose it. I can probably dig up the reference if anyone is really interested. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 FedEx's shipping policy requires you to declare the handgun. I generally declare guns that I sell just because I'm insuring someone else's property and don't want the claim rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 The sons of b*tches did it again! I got the gun shipped, but *now* FedEx can't find a simple address in a tiny town even with the help of a map, GPS, and team of St. Bernards. Soooo.....I get to waste half a day teaching a FedEx driver how to read a goddamned street sign. Would someone PLEASE start a new shipping company that accepts handguns? I can't take much more of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Eric, Not trying to pi$$ you off, but I send guns from Hong Kong to wherever (including the USA), using "Speedpost" at the Post Office and it's never a problem. Have you tried the US Postal Service? I don't know diddly squat about US postal laws, but here the Post Office is fighting back against companies like FedEx, UPS, DHL and so on, who've taken a lot of business away from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Non FFL's can only ship long guns via the U.S.Postal service( I think but am pretty sure) Here in Central Indiana UPS is great to deal with when shipping handguns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Zak wrote: “Some people think there's a federal law that says you have to inform the common carrier that you are shipping a firearm/handgun. This is ONLY true when NOT shipping to a FFL. So for the common case of shipping a gun off to your gunsmith, or selling a gun and sending it to the destination FFL, you are NOT legally required to disclose it.” EricW replied: “FedEx's shipping policy requires you to declare the handgun. I generally declare guns that I sell just because I'm insuring someone else's property and don't want the claim rejected.” Just to clarify, I am well aware that I (as a non-FFL holder) am allowed to send firearms to an FFL holder through common carriers (but NOT U.S. postal service - that is reserved for FFL to FFL shipments only). I am NOT required by law to inform the common carrier that the package contains a firearm. The notification is not law, but merely some huge faceless company’s misguided policy (hey, the rental car companies have a “policy” that I must drive less than 55mph at all times; suuuuure- that’s what I’ll do!). What are the risks of violating this policy? Hmmm. 1) Insurance? Maybe. If the packages were to be stolen, UPS might claim no duty to honor the insurance because the sender misrepresented the contents. Fair enough, but if I pay for overnight W/ a tracking number & label the contents as “rock samples” then what are the chances of theft? I think they are low. 2) UPS might discover the gun. So what? Could they refuse to deliver? Yep. Then I’d simply walk over to FedEx & re-send. Could they keep the gun? No - what basis would they have? You did not break any laws (only company policy) & if they try to confiscate the gun, it would constitute theft of a firearm, unlawful transfer, etc. They can’t turn it over to police because no crime was committed. UPS overnight for shipping guns is beginning to look more attractive. Eric - that really blows. I could not agree with you more about the “demonization” of guns by the mindless PC crowd & the media composed of liberal spin doctors. I would think an apology from FedEx is in order but I would not hold my breath these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Have you tried the US Postal Service? Vinny, I'd LOVE to. Frankly, I think the US Postal Service is the most reliable carrier in America. Unfortunately, I'd be in violation of federal law - which in the case of Postal Law - is vigorously enforced here in the U.S. I'm pretty much done with FedEx. It's going to be UPS undeclared from now on. ================================================== Now, could someone explain how *I*, the consumer, benefitted from the rabid merger mania that left only two private parcel carriers left in the United States? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockster96 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Your timing is impeccable. I now sit in my home, waiting for the UPS guy to show up (between 8am and 7pm) so I can ship my shotgun to a gunsmith. They don't allow you to use their normal drop locations for shipping firearms, I know because I tried yesterday and like an idiot declared the contents. I either have to drive 30 miles to a 'customer service center' or waste my day at home waiting for the big brown truck. Should have used USPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I WOULD LIKE TO HERE YOUR opinion renee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 My understanding of the law is that an individual selling a firearm must have an FFL Holder ship the firearm to the FFL holder on the buyer's end. The law concerning individuals being able to ship firearms on their own to FFL holders only pertains to repair / conversion of firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 My understanding of the law is that an individual selling a firearm must have an FFL Holder ship the firearm to the FFL holder on the buyer's end. The law concerning individuals being able to ship firearms on their own to FFL holders only pertains to repair / conversion of firearms. Not as near as I can discern from ATF's documentation. My understanding is that an individual can ship to an FFL for sale *provided* they obtain a copy of the recipient's FFL license prior to shipment. The "FFL to FFL only" seems to be a *policy* of particular FFL dealers, who would, of course, like you to think it's a law. No black helicopters circling overhead yet. Lots of olive drab ones, but that's normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 EricW, My local ATF agent just confirmed by phone that you're correct. I've mistakenly been told and believed the law was as I previously stated. Thanks for the useful info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 [Furiously marks calendar for posterity] My God! I was actually right about something - and a government regulation at that. Be afraid! Be very afraid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I thought we went thru this before...about whether it was a law, or a company policy, to ship a certain way. (I'm talking about having to use the expensive over-nite thing). If memory serves, the company had the policy, but law required you to tell them (carrier) it was a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Guilty, you double-tapper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I cleaned up his mess. Flex, maybe you should hang out in the computer forums and learn how to avoid double posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 I thought we went thru this before...about whether it was a law, or a company policy, to ship a certain way. (I'm talking about having to use the expensive over-nite thing).If memory serves, the company had the policy, but law required you to tell them (carrier) it was a firearm. We did, but it's nice to hear it (at least secondhand from ATF). Thanks for checking Renee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 My understanding of the law is that an individual selling a firearm must have an FFL Holder ship the firearm to the FFL holder on the buyer's end. The law concerning individuals being able to ship firearms on their own to FFL holders only pertains to repair / conversion of firearms. This is incorrect. A visit to the ATF FAQ will confirm. A nonlicensee can ship to a licensee (FFL) in any state. If you are selling the gun, the FFL's on the receiving end normally "like" to get a copy of your driver's license to log it into their books. I don't know if that last part is required by law, though. Not as near as I can discern from ATF's documentation. My understanding is that an individual can ship to an FFL for sale *provided* they obtain a copy of the recipient's FFL license prior to shipment. I don't think this is actually true for non-FFL to FFL. For FFL to FFL transfers, the sender definitely needs an ink-signed copy. For non-FFL to FFL transfers, to be within the law, the receiver just has to be an FFL! Getting a signed copy is one way to verify. I normally just use the ATF FFL Ez-Check system online to verify, though. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Sorry to hear your troubles. Great information for future use. Thanks, Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 EricW: This may be a bit painful, but... I think you should take steps to let FEDEX know that they pissed you off and why. There is either a breakdown with their training process (didn't tell the guy what the rules were) or their retention process (he's an opinionated leftwinger trying to use his position to make a gunny's life difficult) or their hiring process (he's a slacker/malcontent and shouldn't be there in the first place). To me part of the reason we as consumers (that means anybody consuming anything) don't get good service is because we don't demand it. In our current day philosophy of "It's not his fault he's just a poor schmo trying to do his job" we won't hold people accountable for their actions and attitude. The guy should have said something like, "let me check", "let me get my supervisor" etc. If he did that, no foul. Getting in an argument with you is unacceptable, and, to my way of thinking, should be called on the carpet for it. If you don't let the company know what the problem is, then go away and bitch, you are engaging in classic passive/agressive bahavior and that is rarely productive. Also it is a little unfair because FEDEX has no chance of fixing it. (You like all those big words? I've spent my share of time in Corporate America) Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 24, 2004 Author Share Posted February 24, 2004 Geek, I've pretty much given up fighting corporate america. Been there. Done that. Got a couple t-shirts and a polo shirt to prove it. FedEx does not want my business. Period. The universal animosity they show toward the little customer is proof enough. I don't need to prove it again. If you want to tilt the windmill, feel free to come by and borrow my jousting pole. My solution: I just stop giving them my money. Eventually if enough of us do it they'll wonder what happened. Nothing else will get their attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 I packed up a blaster and parts to send to BrianH. I reviewed UPS's policies and FedEx's as a backup because UPS said I had to have a letter on file that stated I'm authorized to ship firearms. So I wrote a letter authorizing myself to ship firearms, just in case. I packed the box with the gun disassembled, as per FedEx policy in case I had to use them. I guesstimated the weight at 5 pounds and checked the rates: $49 for UPS "Air Saver" and $53 for FedEx "Priority Overnight." (These are the least expensive methods of shipping handguns via these carriers.) After picking my jaw off the floor I tried to see if it was cheaper to ship just the frame by air and ship the non-gun parts by ground, but no such luck. So I headed off to UPS, with self-authorization letter and two printed web pages of UPS policies. But the 3:30 traffic was hell and I was right near FedEx so I went there. Declared the value at $3,500 (California replacement cost!) and gave the counter person my credit card. Then I said it was a firearm and parts for repair. It didn't require any special action but she did, however, place it out of reach of any other customers who might have heard there was a $3,500 gun in there. $53 to ship gun parts from San Francisco, CA to Albany, OR. Damn, my ass hurts. And it's going to hurt again when I pay BrianH to ship the gun back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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