Aiming for the center of an A…

[badchad]

I have to admit I think I just shoot at A-zones rather than aiming for the center of them. I think I should probably start doing the latter; however this seems to contradict with “seeing what I need to see.”

So should I aim for center A-zones all the time or just the harder shots? Also in a transition do I just snap my vision to the center of an alpha and then shoot when the sights seem good enough, or should I take the time to line them up dead center? It seems slow to wait and line up the more precise shot but I imagine that will get crisper and faster too. What about a steel stage like Smoke and Hope, I’ve already resolved to see a sight picture on the stage but should I also resolve to aim for the center of the plate?

[j2fast]

Check out this post, its where the BE quote from my sig below originated.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=38505&hl

[Jake Di Vita]

Always aim for the center of the A zone, but shoot as soon as your bullet with impact your target area.

[Paul Santiago]

I have to admit I think I just shoot at A-zones rather than aiming for the center of them. I think I should probably start doing the latter; however this seems to contradict with “seeing what I need to see.”

So should I aim for center A-zones all the time or just the harder shots? Also in a transition do I just snap my vision to the center of an alpha and then shoot when the sights seem good enough, or should I take the time to line them up dead center? It seems slow to wait and line up the more precise shot but I imagine that will get crisper and faster too. What about a steel stage like Smoke and Hope, I’ve already resolved to see a sight picture on the stage but should I also resolve to aim for the center of the plate?

Here's my .02 on shooting paper, but mind you I'm a low C-class shooter. My 45+yr shooting life has been spent trying to put the second shot through the same hole the first shot made. I'm pretty good at that and it works great for other types of shooting. It's not necessary for this sport. The ability to do so certainly doesn't hurt, but an A-ZONE hit counts the same anywhere in the 'AZONE'. You need to be able to recognize when your front sight is in the A-ZONE, the trigger is ready. grip is solid and then break the shot. Speed will come when you are able to recognize what you need to see to hit the A-zone. I'm still working on it but getting better at seeing the A-zone versus looking for the 'X''ring.

I'm sure you'll get much more qualified answers from others but those are my thoughts.

Edited September 29, 2008 by pas44

[kevin c]

Here's another way to look at it:

What you need to see is what will make the shot hit where you want, but remember that the point of probable impact is not a point but roughly a circle centered on the point of aim. Between the inherent accuracy of the gun and the shooter's ability to aim it, the size of the circle varies. It also varies depending on what the shooter accepts as a sight picture. If you get all of the circle into the A zone, you'll have an A hit. If part of it is out, then there's a chance of a lower scoring hit proportional to the amount of the impact circle out of the A zone.

The circle is smaller with a more accurate gun, or by aiming more precisely. The impact circle fits the desired scoring zone more easily if the target is close or more of the higher scoring surface is available.

Aiming exactly in the middle of the A zone maximizes the amount of the impact circle that fits inside, maximizing the chance of an A hit, and might be necessary if the circle is big compared to the A zone (ironically, inaccurate guns need to be aimed more carefully). Say, at the distance being shot, the impact circle ("group") is 4" across. That gives the shooter a 2" wide area to aim at in the middle of the target to get all of the shots into the A zone. If the impact circle is 2" across, the shooter can aim into an area 4" across (four times the area) to do the same thing. If the shot breaks when the shooter has the impact circle on the right side of the A zone, but still all inside, the resulting A hit will be on the right side.

Bottom line - Aim well enough (aka: see what you need to see to make the shot).

grammer edit...

Edited September 30, 2008 by kevin c

[Flexmoney]

Gotta understand the perspective and the baggage that each shooter will show up with. There are a few folks here that come from and accuracy based background (bullseye, PPC, etc).

1. For them, too much aligning of the sights can slow them down and hurt their scores here.

2. Guys like our host, have the skills and the guns and the ammo (things that make up the shooting system) to hit anywhere on a target that they like. If Brian happens to find himself holding an inch or so in on the 9 o'clock edge of a plate at 20y, he is likely able to break that shot...and make that shot.

3. Others, like me perhaps, don't have as much precision to call upon with our system. So, I want the center of the target, which gives me more wiggle room.

To answer your first question... if you are already snapping your vision ahead to locate where you want to gun to go, why not locate the SPOT? It shouldn't take any extra to do so, just a clear desire. So, why not give the gun a precise destination. Once that is defined and established, then see what the gun tells you as it arrives.

Here are some past threads with my thoughts, and others...

Wanna-b-speedy - The pain of a speed focus.

Wanna-b-speedy (part 2), follow the bouncing dot??? - Where is the gun going?

Target Spot

[badchad]

Thanks for the info all. I read and reread the threads you linked Flex.

From this, and my recent other questions I asked, it seems that with adequate practice you are not giving up much, if any, time seeing your sights on every target and your points will be better a lot better. In addition with adequate practice it seems you are not giving up much, if any, time by seeing your sights in the center of the target rather than shooting at the target in general, and in doing so your points will be better.

This might be splitting hairs and it seems people in the linked threads were describing both but here’s what remains of my question:

Is it better if you designate the entire A-zone (or steel plate) as your target and you fire when your sights are aligned in the middle of it, or is it better if an imaginary spot in the center of the A-zone (or steel plate) is your target and you fire when your sights are aligned well enough with that spot.

It seems to me like the latter method would require additional mental processing to come up with an imaginary point instantaneously, but seem a little more inline with the idea of aim small miss small. So is one way better or is it more of a personal preference thing?

[Flexmoney]

This might be splitting hairs and it seems people in the linked threads were describing both but here’s what remains of my question:

Is it better if you designate the entire A-zone (or steel plate) as your target and you fire when your sights are aligned in the middle of it, or is it better if an imaginary spot in the center of the A-zone (or steel plate) is your target and you fire when your sights are aligned well enough with that spot.

It seems to me like the latter method would require additional mental processing to come up with an imaginary point instantaneously, but seem a little more inline with the idea of aim small miss small. So is one way better or is it more of a personal preference thing?

For me, the latter, for sure.

I can pick out my target SPOT faster than my gun can get there. So, that gives me the "aim small" part.

Taking the gun to a well defined (centered) SPOT...on top of the benefits of driving the gun to a "well defined" destination...I am allowed a bit more slop in the sight picture/trigger pull. So, I don't have to be as perfect...allowing for a bit more "grossness" in the motor skills.

Get to where you are driving the gun to a defined SPOT and you should have a leg up on figuring out the rest.

And, don't forget, it all starts with a good call on the shot before the transition, then an eye snap.

[benos]

Instead of finding a spot, you might also experiment with finding the outline of the A-box, at distances where you can easily see it.

I had the best "precise-index-shooting" practice day of my life doing that. And it may have just been something magic going on that day - but it's worth experimenting with. For some reason it feels like I can find the outline of the A-box faster than I can find the letter A, or the center of the A-box. But that may not be true, it may be just what I remembering being true on that particular day.

When I find the target, or A-box, as its outline shape, the sights naturally snap to the center of it. So I didn't feel like I lost any precision.

be

[Bigpops]

This might be splitting hairs and it seems people in the linked threads were describing both but here’s what remains of my question:

Is it better if you designate the entire A-zone (or steel plate) as your target and you fire when your sights are aligned in the middle of it, or is it better if an imaginary spot in the center of the A-zone (or steel plate) is your target and you fire when your sights are aligned well enough with that spot.

It seems to me like the latter method would require additional mental processing to come up with an imaginary point instantaneously, but seem a little more inline with the idea of aim small miss small. So is one way better or is it more of a personal preference thing?

For me, the latter, for sure.

I can pick out my target SPOT faster than my gun can get there. So, that gives me the "aim small" part.

Taking the gun to a well defined (centered) SPOT...on top of the benefits of driving the gun to a "well defined" destination...I am allowed a bit more slop in the sight picture/trigger pull. So, I don't have to be as perfect...allowing for a bit more "grossness" in the motor skills.

Get to where you are driving the gun to a defined SPOT and you should have a leg up on figuring out the rest.

And, don't forget, it all starts with a good call on the shot before the transition, then an eye snap.

Flex,

I have been reading your posts with an open mind and trying to put it all together. I do have a question for you in regards to front sight reference.

At what point do you focus on the front sight while addressing a target, or put another way, when moving your eyes to the next target and your gun follows? Are you then focusing on the front sight?

I have a competive archery background which taught me to focus on the target and overlay your sight on the target. With the pistol I find my eyes doing sprints when i feel like I should be more focused on the front sight. Perhaps I should just sell everything and go Open!

[Flexmoney]

I have a competive archery background which taught me to focus on the target and overlay your sight on the target. With the pistol I find my eyes doing sprints when i feel like I should be more focused on the front sight. Perhaps I should just sell everything and go Open!

Explore this first. See what you learn. know that it may take a while to get the mind and vision moving.

- Current target: my visual focus is on the front sight. I see the front sight lift out of the notch in recoil (this allows me to call the shot). [note: if you aren't yet to the point where you can..and do...call all of your shots, then spend your training time on shot calling instead/first.]

- After the call, my visual focus will snap to the next target to locate and define where I want the gun to go on the target transition.

- Once the destination is set, my visual focus will pull back to the find the front sight. By this time, the gun will be coming onto the target destination.

- As the gun "settles" (no time at all), my visual focus sees the front sight is razor sharp clarity.

- For the second shot on the same target, my visual focus can stay with the front sight (giving me maximum feedback to call the shot), since I have already located my target SPOT for this target.

- For the next target transition, repeat above.

[Flexmoney]

Let me add this:

At first, when trying/learning a new thing, we will tend to do so in steps. We will say to ourselves that we are supposed to see "X" right now...and we will check that off the list. Then we will move on to the next thing to check off the list.

At first, this will seem slower to us.

Down the line, these things will flow together. Like paddling a canoe.

[Loves2Shoot]

I'm finding I shoot faster and more accurate if I find a "scoring area" on the target for easy shots and a "spot" for hard shots, and then know how much I can deviate with my sights alignment from that area for that particular shot. Like BE posted above, I think it just happens like magic almost if you focus on it.

If I don't find a "scoring area" or "spot" on the target, I still have a good chance of still hitting the target, but a good chance is not always good enough, and I can't out shoot what I can see if I'm paying attention, so it pays off to pay attention.

If the "scoring area" is a A zone at 7 yards it is huge and you need to see very little if you have good technique, if it is a UPS popper at 35 yards, I need to see a "spot" on the target.

The more you focus on a "spot" the less deviation you generally have with your shots and when your goal is the "scoring area", you will have more deviation, but as long as you know you are in the area with your shot, you are good to go so there isn't the need to see a "spot."

[Bigpops]

I have a competive archery background which taught me to focus on the target and overlay your sight on the target. With the pistol I find my eyes doing sprints when i feel like I should be more focused on the front sight. Perhaps I should just sell everything and go Open!

Explore this first. See what you learn. know that it may take a while to get the mind and vision moving.

- Current target: my visual focus is on the front sight. I see the front sight lift out of the notch in recoil (this allows me to call the shot). [note: if you aren't yet to the point where you can..and do...call all of your shots, then spend your training time on shot calling instead/first.]

- After the call, my visual focus will snap to the next target to locate and define where I want the gun to go on the target transition.

- Once the destination is set, my visual focus will pull back to the find the front sight. By this time, the gun will be coming onto the target destination.

- As the gun "settles" (no time at all), my visual focus sees the front sight is razor sharp clarity.

- For the second shot on the same target, my visual focus can stay with the front sight (giving me maximum feedback to call the shot), since I have already located my target SPOT for this target.

- For the next target transition, repeat above.

Wow. Sounds pretty simple put that way. Now to go practice.

Thank you very much Flex..to all of you. Being new to this competitive shooting, I learn more on this forum than I ever imagined. Some good...some bad!

[Flexmoney]

Wow. Sounds pretty simple put that way. Now to go practice.

Getting your vision moving in this manner is...kinda hard. The physical tasks/steps aren't that hard, but getting the right mental picture to drive the action can be. It's really a mindset. You have to decide to put "seeing more" as your one driving goal of your shooting. (that means not to think of speed, nor even accuracy...just make your one thought "see more")

When you explore it, do so in super-slow motion for quite a while.

[Bigpops]

Wow. Sounds pretty simple put that way. Now to go practice.

Getting your vision moving in this manner is...kinda hard. The physical tasks/steps aren't that hard, but getting the right mental picture to drive the action can be. It's really a mindset. You have to decide to put "seeing more" as your one driving goal of your shooting. (that means not to think of speed, nor even accuracy...just make your one thought "see more")

When you explore it, do so in super-slow motion for quite a while.

I find that I try to be too accurate. I seem to shoot better (at home) when I don't "think to much". Right now I am working on keeping my eyes open during the shot and seeing everything that happens. Once I read that in Brians book, and that we needed to master that before we continue....well I saved the page and closed the book.

The other problem I have is relying on instinctive shooting. During IDPA matches, on close targets, I can zip through without really aiming and score well. But...what am I seeing? That's the problem, it is instinctive vice "seeing".

Does this make sense?

[Paladin]

I kinda do what loves2shoot do.. shoot from within a scoring area. If I feel risky I may not refine my sight picture for a 'more' difficult shot.. the 'find a spot' thing has generally never worked for me..