unsafe ammunition ?

[wide45]

Once the primer popped, the competitor no longer had "unsafe ammo", therefore the safety problem does not exist.

I can read too.

Sure, what you don't get is that is doesn't matter. Your chronology is off.

The call was made to stop the shooter AT THE MOMENT OF THE POP.

Was the call justified? Yes, because that ammo that went POP was unsafe.

is?

No, your chronology is wrong.

5.7.7.1 is a little vague

5.7.7.2 is crystal clear. Does, not did.

The condition of the ammo/gun when examined by the RO, determines the reshoot.

Edited August 13, 2008 by wide45

[HoMiE]

What constitutes "unsafe ammunition"?

I stopped a shooter once because I noticed a lot of FTFs on a previous stage. The next stage I RO'd shooter, same thing, FTF, rack shoot, rack shoot. One of the shots was noticeably louder and quite a bit more muzzle flip, I give the STOP commmand. After ULSC, I looked at some the the rounds that were cleared out during the FTF from racking the slide and quite a bit of bullet set back. I asked to see one of his mags, examined a bullet and hardly any crimp. I could push the bullet in with my finger quite easily and told him you can reshoot if you can get some better ammo.

[Miranda]

Flex since you brought it up I have been turning the idea over in my head.

As I see it, "unsafe ammo" is:

a round that will cause harm to the operator of the weapon.

a round that will cause harm to the weapon.

a round that will leave the weapon in a condition that will make

the above two very possible.

a squib is unsafe,

just not directly.

There are a a lot of ways to get to the same place,

walking on a super highway is safe until there are cars...

I found myself thinking about the old advert;

how mank licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

How many squibs per competition is 'unsafe'

Do we really want to know for sure?

is any reason to think

the re-loader clearly had something besides loading on his mind

a reason to believe the ammo is unsafe?

flipped and sideways primers kinda tend me in that direction

miranda

[JThompson]

Flex since you brought it up I have been turning the idea over in my head.

As I see it, "unsafe ammo" is:

a round that will cause harm to the operator of the weapon.

a round that will cause harm to the weapon.

a round that will leave the weapon in a condition that will make

the above two very possible.

a squib is unsafe,

just not directly.

There are a a lot of ways to get to the same place,

walking on a super highway is safe until there are cars...

I found myself thinking about the old advert;

how mank licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

How many squibs per competition is 'unsafe'

Do we really want to know for sure?

is any reason to think

the re-loader clearly had something besides loading on his mind

a reason to believe the ammo is unsafe?

flipped and sideways primers kinda tend me in that direction

miranda

If we use your logic then a flipped primer is not unsafe, because it can not cause a squib and doesn't meet any of your safety concerns.

Reshoot and move on.

[Flexmoney]

Kyle,

You are entitled to your opinion on what the rules "should" say.

The fact remains that I completely disagree with your interpretation to the described event as the rules are written. Twist it any way you want, using any rules you choose, my comments on this event stand.

The RO was correct to stop the shooter. No unsafe condition in the gun, No unsafe handgun, No bullet in the barrel - Reshoot!

Further comments from me are not likely at this point.

George,

I'm not debating with you to debate.

I'm not twisting the rules either. You opinion and mine seem to differ. THAT is the very point I am trying to make by bringing this up. We have a hole in the rule book.

As I have said all along. The question is (and the one I asked before we got into specifics)...what is "unsafe ammo"?

Anyone reading this needs to address their definition of unsafe ammo before they can address any specifics. If you aren't' willing to do that, then you aren't really furthering the discussion.

As asked before:

- Is a backwards or sideways primer "unsafe ammunition"? (Would you shoot it? Would you let your son/daughter/niece/nephew shoot it?)

- Does the answer change when we know the competitor had a squib on an earlier stage in the match?

I've heard mention a few times now of culling the ammo of any rounds that have backwards/sideways primers. In that light, why...as a match official...would you do that? The assumption would be that you would do so because the ammo isn't safe?

[Flyin40]

Flex since you brought it up I have been turning the idea over in my head.

As I see it, "unsafe ammo" is:

a round that will cause harm to the operator of the weapon.

a round that will cause harm to the weapon.

a round that will leave the weapon in a condition that will make

the above two very possible.

a squib is unsafe,

just not directly.

There are a a lot of ways to get to the same place,

walking on a super highway is safe until there are cars...

I found myself thinking about the old advert;

how mank licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

How many squibs per competition is 'unsafe'

Do we really want to know for sure?

is any reason to think

the re-loader clearly had something besides loading on his mind

a reason to believe the ammo is unsafe?

flipped and sideways primers kinda tend me in that direction

miranda

If we use your logic then a flipped primer is not unsafe, because it can not cause a squib and doesn't meet any of your safety concerns.

Reshoot and move on.

But a sideways primer can cause a squib though it might be a small chance. The shooter in question had a sideways primer.

Flyin

[Miranda]

If we use your logic then a flipped primer is not unsafe, because it can not cause a squib and doesn't meet any of your safety concerns.

Reshoot and move on.

Hi JThompson,

Is long as it is agreed that a flipped primer will cause no harm if set off,

then I can agree it is not 'unsafe ammo'.

I also think it is something that can be culled or removed from the ammo without a problem.

miranda

[JThompson]

If we use your logic then a flipped primer is not unsafe, because it can not cause a squib and doesn't meet any of your safety concerns.

Reshoot and move on.

Hi JThompson,

Is long as it is agreed that a flipped primer will cause no harm if set off,

then I can agree it is not 'unsafe ammo'.

I also think it is something that can be culled or removed from the ammo without a problem.

miranda

I agree.

[HoMiE]

- Is a backwards or sideways primer "unsafe ammunition"? (Would you shoot it? Would you let your son/daughter/niece/nephew shoot it?)

I've shot a sideways primer before, although it does give the shooter a surprise, I would not consider it "unsafe ammo" in and of itself.

- Does the answer change when we know the competitor had a squib on an earlier stage in the match?

Yes - I start to question the reliability of the ammo, that is were the discretion of the RO comes in and the call needs to be made if it makes the gun unsafe as the ammo is already suspect. Instead of giving, reshoot after reshoot, no shooting until competitor can show or is confident suspected ammo is resolved.

I've heard mention a few times now of culling the ammo of any rounds that have backwards/sideways primers. In that light, why...as a match official...would you do that? The assumption would be that you would do so because the ammo isn't safe?

I've done it because even after taking every precaution of inspecting, case gauging, marking, and visually inspecting second time while loading mags, I have had primers come out or get turned sideways. I've also experienced factory ammo or factory reloaded ammo go 'pop' and no squib, so to me it has no bearing on the shooter. If the gun goes POP, I say STOP.

Edited August 13, 2008 by HoMiE

[wide45]

But a sideways primer can cause a squib though it might be a small chance. The shooter in question had a sideways primer.

Flyin

Sideways primer can't cause a squib. It might not pop, it might pop, it might light the powder and go bang.

A squib is caused by insufficient or contaminated powder. Primer does not cause it.

[Flexmoney]

Sideways primers can (and do) leak powder out of the case...which can lead to a squib. So, that is perfectly plausable.

[HoMiE]

Sideways primers can( and do) leak powder out of the case...which can lead to a squib.

In that case, 5.7.7.1 tell us what to do. No reshoot, score it as it is.

[George Jones]

Sideways primer can't cause a squib. It might not pop, it might pop, it might light the powder and go bang.

A squib is caused by insufficient or contaminated powder. Primer does not cause it.

Exactly!

[Flexmoney]

I think a couple of your are trying to win an argument. I'm not in an argument.

I put forth a question for discussion.

If you'd like to answer the question, I'd appreciate it.

I will restate it...one more time (for those that missed it).

As I have said all along. The question is (and the one I asked before we got into specifics)...what is "unsafe ammo"?

Anyone reading this needs to address their definition of unsafe ammo before they can address any specifics. If you aren't' willing to do that, then you aren't really furthering the discussion.

As asked before:

- Is a backwards or sideways primer "unsafe ammunition"? (Would you shoot it? Would you let your son/daughter/niece/nephew shoot it?)

- Does the answer change when we know the competitor had a squib on an earlier stage in the match?

I've heard mention a few times now of culling the ammo of any rounds that have backwards/sideways primers. In that light, why...as a match official...would you do that? The assumption would be that you would do so because the ammo isn't safe?

[JKSNIPER]

IMHO if you would not want to stand right next to the guy shooting the possibly unsafe ammo then you have answered the question.

The ammo had something about it which caused you concern for your safety.

Which makes it potentially unsafe.

If upon examination you find a condition which confirms your suspicion then (again IMHO) you as the R.O. should voice your concern to the competitor and refuse to allow him to shoot the unsafe ammunition.

If the ammo can be "culled" and that will make it safe then the competitor should do it in another area without holding up the stage/squad.

If not then the R.O. and match director need to make a decision on whether or not this particular competitor can safely continue or if he should not be allowed to shoot the rest of the match due to a potential safety concern.

Safety is #1 and should trump all other concerns.

Just my .02.

JK

[Barrettone]

I think a couple of your are trying to win an argument. I'm not in an argument.

I put forth a question for discussion.

If you'd like to answer the question, I'd appreciate it.

I will restate it...one more time (for those that missed it).

As I have said all along. The question is (and the one I asked before we got into specifics)...what is "unsafe ammo"?

Anyone reading this needs to address their definition of unsafe ammo before they can address any specifics. If you aren't' willing to do that, then you aren't really furthering the discussion.

As asked before:

- Is a backwards or sideways primer "unsafe ammunition"? (Would you shoot it? Would you let your son/daughter/niece/nephew shoot it?)

- Does the answer change when we know the competitor had a squib on an earlier stage in the match?

I've heard mention a few times now of culling the ammo of any rounds that have backwards/sideways primers. In that light, why...as a match official...would you do that? The assumption would be that you would do so because the ammo isn't safe?

I will answer the question...It is NOT unsafe ammo. It is unserviceable. I (we) had this problem at the Targeting Education Match 2 years ago at Raccoon Hunters (PRH was the RM). The gentleman was shooting 45 ACP ammo in his single stack Kimber, and had what was thought to be a squib on a stage. Turns out, he had a backwards primer...he is warned and gets a reshoot AFTER he seperates the bad rounds at the RM's request, and then goes to the next stage where it happens again, this time for a lack of powder. Obviously, he was not a reloading genius. RM DQ's the AMMO from the match, and the competitor retires to the parking lot where I give him some GOOD 45ACP ammo that I reloaded. He goes back, and DOES NOT get a reshoot for the second time around, as there really was a squib. Bottom line is, that backwards, sideways primers are NOT unsafe ammo. They either go boom, or they don't, and the bullet does not come out of the case. THEREFORE, I would issue a reshoot if a sideways primer detonated, but was later found out to not have sent the bullet down the pipe or partially down the pipe as the case may be. Would I stop the shooter...HELL YES!!! But I would give him the reshoot. As much as it pains me to say this...I agree with George.

[Miranda]

Flex,

I once read a book about game theory.

I think it was called "finite and infinite games"

You may be looking for a definition for a term

and most of your responses are about what to do.

I know the above seems to be stating the obvious,

however, I think what I am hearing is that, for the most part,

everyone seems to feel they know what "unsafe ammo" is...

so they are thinking you want another answer.

I'd like to bring another thought to your search for a definition.

Perhaps? you could add to your considerations, the concept of why you want

to fill the hole in the rules?

I agree a good definition is missing. or is so clear that is goes without saying.

thus I bring game theory to the table.

For a player in a game to feel he had a fair chance at winning....

he has to know the rules and know they were used properly and fairly.

as the rules stand now unsafe ammo is a judgement call.

I can see the call 'unsafe ammunition' would look unfair to some one

the first time they fall afoul of that rule.

Tough call to make and even harder for the participant to accept.

Are there any guide lines for having a weapon in good order?

perhaps ammo can be given the same kind of treatment?

miranda

[George Jones]

So, while the thread weaved around somewhat when a specific stage scenario was discussed, Flex's original conceptual question is still in play. Here is my perspective.

Flex's original question: What constitutes "unsafe ammunition"? I think there are a number of answers.

First, there is "demonstrated" unsafe ammo. The gun doesn't go "Bang!", it goes "BOOM". There is no doubt that this round was unsafe, but we don't know if there was any visible evidence before it was fired. In most cases I have witnessed, the gun is no longer in useable condition and is in need of some level of repair or reassembly. In some cases, it wasn't the ammo at all, it was the gun which fired out of battery, etc.

Then, there is "suspected" unsafe ammo. A common example is a batch of ammo that has experienced more than one squib. Still no visible evidence. No way to prove it is unsafe without shooting it (not me), except by disassembling the round(s).

Lastly, there is "visibly unserviceable" ammo. Perhaps nothing unusual has yet happened, but there is visible evidence to lead one to think the ammo might have problems. Cracked, deformed, or corroded cases, loose crimp, deformed or backwards primers. Some of these conditions could be considered unsafe, others not. Regardless, the shooter would be nuts not to weed out the visibly defective rounds before continuing. They may not be unsafe (therefore not subject to 5.5.5) but why would anyone continue with them?

In the case of the sideways primer "poof" scenario (RO stops the shooter), there is no evidence of an unsafe condition. Had he not been stopped, the shooter could have continued safely. Rule 5.7.7.1 makes it quite clear that if the "suspected problem" (a squib) did not happen and lacking any evidence of any other specific unsafe condition, the only legitimate ruling is for a reshoot. Imposing any personal bias as to ammo safety would not be appropriate, IMO.

Bottom line, for me, is that most of these situations require sound judgment. There will rarely be a simple answer (part of the reason why we should not formally define "unsafe ammo"). Before a final/formal decision can be reached, you have to assess all available information. For example, in the case of a squib, we have generally considered a solitary squib round NOT to be sufficient evidence of an unsafe lot of ammo. However, once a second squib happens (or the shooter provides additional information), we now have sufficient reason for the lot to be withdrawn - RM's judgment.

Unlike Flex, I don't think the rules have a problem here. Sometimes a little vagueness is the best approach. Not everything can be pigeon-holed. That's why we expect our Range Masters to know their stuff.

[kimel]

We had a shooter who will go nameless show up at a match with a bunch of factory ammo.

First shot sounds like a squib so we stop him. No squib, bullet has not moved from the case. Reshoot.

First shot sounds like a squib so we stop him. No squib, bullet has not moved from the case. At this point someone notices the primer has disintegrated and fallen from the primer pocket. There is NO FLASH HOLE!

We all dug around in our "spare ammo boxes" and found enough ammo for this guy to finish the match and told him to go get his money back.

I forget who the manufacturer was but it was one of the big boys.

Stick around guns and ammo long enough and you will see darn near anything.

[Glen]

Ok ... you have a round with a primer in backwards (not sideways,

as I haven't investigated them).

You chamber it and "fire" the round. Clearly there are

some consequences due to the inverted primer.

Do any of these consequences rise to the level of unsafe?

For sure an inverted primer will not ignite the powder, so

the problems associated with firing a round also won't exist.

ie. squibs, too much power, not enough power, cracked cases ...

That leaves the primer itself. The primer cup isn't going anywhere

as it is in the primer pocket and will actually be pushed into it, sealing

the flash hole.

The primer anvil is a different story. It vanishes. Blown apart

and spread with no noticeable residue throughout the interior of

the gun. I don't think there is enough energy in the primer to

obliterate the anvil and still have some left over to cause other damage.

Comments would be appreciated on this issue.

When the inverted primer pops, there is a sharp sound and a very

small puff of smoke.

The last one is the lead compounds used in non-NT primers. The

inverted primer will have these lead compounds vented near the

shooter rather than in a downrange direction. As bad as shooting

indoors?

None of these consequences rise to the level of unsafe. When an

inverted primer pops, it's unxepected but it isn't unsafe.

We shouldn't conflate the two.

Glen

[Miranda]

Hi George Jones,

I like your post and I think I agree with all of it.

I do not think using 'judgemen't is a bad thing.

I am stating this because I believe it to be what you said

and It is a point that is exactly why ( I think so anyway... ) Flex is looking at the rules here.

for almost any other part of the rules in this sport

there are no judgement calls.

I see that as a good thing. the rules are clear and easily seen and understood.

there being no need to call safe or strike or ball or "I calls 'em as I see 'em"

is something I think is GOOD!

now we have a ruling that can end a competitor's day

and it is completely judgement.

one person can make that call. there is no need for proof or reason

or evidence to back the judgement.

sit down. you are done. you have 'unsafe ammo'.

Any one can be found in violation of this rule.

it does not come with any exceptions.

In a sport that has no other judgement calls I can think up, it is unusual.

For that reason alone it bears a good close look.

The rules makers may well end at

"We can find no better alternative to the rules as they stand."

From what I read, the guys at the meet find ammo for the person.

are you sure you want to survive on the kindness of others?

miranda

[George Jones]

There are a number of judgment calls in our sport.

RO interference.

Accidental discharge.

Breaking the 180.

Finger in the trigger guard.

Unsportsmanlike conduct.

Some of these shooter actions leave no residual evidence.

Most have much more severe penalties than unsafe ammo.

No "one person" has final authority on those calls. We have a pecking order in officiating and the shooter can appeal to the CRO, then RM, then to arbitration if necessary.

Nothing about unsafe ammo tells the shooter that his day is done. He can keep shooting - his ammo can't. I do not recall evr seeing such a situation where squad mates or someone else did not offer suitable ammo. The last resort may be Wal-Mart but I've never seen a shooter just go home. YMMV

[Throwin Lead]

From what I have read in this thread while a person was shooting the RO heard a "pop" instead of a "BANG" and stopped the shooter instinctively thinking that it was a squib. I think we are all in agreement that "If it goes POP you must STOP" for the sake of safety.

Apparently after ULASC it was proven that their wasn't a squib and and from my understanding the round in question was recovered and found to have either a sideways or reversed primer bringing up Flex's question of "What is unsafe ammo?"

If I had to have a match official go through my ammo looking for MORE flipped or sideways primers and finding some I honestly think I would have to call it a day & declare a DNF for the match. The reason being is a lot of what we do on the range is based on mutual trust amongst ourselves. I certainly would not want to be the guy that had a KB that injured another person let alone my self because of my error that originated on my reloading bench. Some answered in this thread that they case gauge, check for high, low, or no primers,flipped primers, sideways primers cracked cases etc. the point being they in their own way have some quality controls they build in their ammo production before they come out and play with the rest of us. They not only want to produce top notch ammo for themselves, they respect the fact that we are all playing a game with a loaded gun & have sense enough to remove the questionable rounds, maybe for their own performance, maybe for the safety of others or both.

I understand stuff happens but how did the round in question get into the ammo box hence into the mag in the first place? I think that those of us that reload owe it to ourselves and our competitors to have some sort of quality controls in place for the handloads we produce. Even putting rounds primer side up in a 50 round factory tray before dumping them into the Crown Royal bag or Tupperware container is better than nothing.

To answer Flex's question about unsafe ammo. This is the subjective part - If I was the RO charged with going through somebody's ammo and found more rounds that were not up to par I think I would have to err on the side of caution and pull the ammo from the match. It would appear to me that the person didn't have a good day on the reloading bench or wasn't responsible enough to QC his lot of ammo. What's the worse thing that can happen? The guy takes a DNF, takes his ammo home, trusts it enough to use at a practice and it either works or it doesn't? I would probably never know if indeed the guy's ammo was safe after the fact but I would know that I did what I felt was necessary for the safety of others as well as myself at the time. Granted a hard lesson to be learned.

Sure feelings get hurt, tempers may flare, you may even lose friends but the reality of it all is what we do for fun and recreation should not be taken lightly especially when there is a safety concern.

Just my dimestore novel on the matter.

Mike

[Throwin Lead]

In a sport that has no other judgement calls I can think up, it is unusual.

miranda

Perhaps another thread for another time but I'll bet those who have been DQ'd because the RO "thought" he saw the finger in the trigger guard when moving will disagree.

[Miranda]

Hi George Jones,

hmmmm.

I have a hard time deciding about our post.

I think you said that unsafe ammo is a judgement call. We agree there.

Also That some other things are judgement calls.

in your list I see only one that I agree is completely a judgement call...

unsportsmanlike conduct ...

all of them require the competitor to act before the call can be made.

"unsafe ammo" can be called at ANYTIME and without any more proof required to back the call.

With the understanding that no other ammo is available,

there is no futher competing once 'unsafe ammo' is called.

Can you understand why the rule should be considered for clarification?