Custom Glock Racing Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 The other thread was needlesly locked as there still seems to be people that want to discuss this. Some say this is addressedin the rule but it is not. It is simply an Interpretation of a vague rule. Additonally depending on how you read the book you dont start the course until you fire your first round. If the stage has not started yet you can't have had more than 10 rounds in your gun during the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 What is with this attitude of some of the forum moderators???? No need to be spittin' hairballs at everyone when their opinions are different than your own. The discussions have been civil and informative. Let them continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 What is with this attitude of some of the forum moderators????No need to be spittin' hairballs at everyone when their opinions are different than your own. The discussions have been civil and informative. Let them continue. Muser, Pray tell, what was informative or civil in your post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 hi all, this is a good discussion. however, rules are rules, end of story. 10 rounds in the mag, means 10 rounds not 11. the competitor started the course of fire with 11 in the mag. but, officer i was only 5 miles over the speed limit. i think the lesson was a hard one, but i'm sure it won't be repeated. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Let me get this straight; I have an old aftermarket Glock high-cap that I trust to use as a stripper mag but not much else. I keep it in my front pocket & at LAMR, I load one round out of that, put it back in my pocket, then grab a fresh mag from my belt. Never paid much attention to how many rounds I put in it. If I accidentally had 11 in it, but only used it as a stripper, that bumps me to open? I agree that this policy (not a rule) should not apply until the shooting starts, if at all. I understand the concern w/ possible cheaters, but most timers count the number of shots anyway so it should not be too difficult for an RO to catch the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Lynn, The problem with your bad analogy, is this: The rule book states that the stage begins after LAMR AND after the buzzer sounds. Thus if you strip one from the 11 round mag you comply with one and not the other. Thus according to the rulebook you are NOT speeding if you use the rule that says the COF starts after the buzzer. The problem is not going 5 miles over the speed limit, but poorly written rules. I'll bet they would bump you if you used a 170mm striper clip with 1 round in it in limited too. Where is the common sense? Poor guy at factory nats probably was used to using the 11 technique to LAMR and spaced the "special emphasis" $600 airfare/car rental $250 hotel $150 meals $250 match fee, time off work, shooting for no score PRICELESS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 l2s, the course of fire beings at the lamr command, not after the buzzer sounds, okay? the competitor started the course of fire with 11 rounds. one last thing. when was the last time you, me, or anyone else has made money at a pistol match or even broke even? this is about fun, the competitor still had fun, right?. at least he didn't get DQ'd. where's my stick? lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 A Course Of Fire (COF) begins with, "Load And Make Ready". COF ends with, "Range Clear". Ten rounds maximum in any mag used during the time between these commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 If the you bump me before you say "shooter ready" and the buzzer sounds are you going to give me a reshoot? I am shooting L10 and I was walking to the line (all mags 10 rounds) stripping 1 round, pulling the mag and putting 1 more round in it (all my mags hold 19/20) I technically did the exact same thing. That mag had 11 rounds in it after the LAMR, but was in compliance with 10 +1. Do you bump me too? 8.3.4 "start signal" - The signal to start the course of fire. Once again for those of you who can't read your rulebook, he had 10 +1 when he started the COF (course of fire) as the rulebook states (twice 8.3.1). Simple enough. If only common sense was common Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I suggest the easiest, noncontroversial solution to the subject is to load ten rounds maximum in each magazine. Chamber a round after Load And Make Ready, remove mag from gun, insert a mag with ten rounds maximum into the gun. If a shooter chooses to replace one round in the magazine which was utilized to charge the gun, fine. If not, that is also fine. Easy to comply with rules, easy for R.O. to assure compliance, easy for other shooters to observe that each shooter is complying, thus no endless debates at the range after a shooter completes a COF, no potential for a shooter to be bumped to another class. Everyone happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Why jump through those hoops, just fix the rule. 10 +1 in the gun at the start signal max. Is that too simple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Same goal, different paths. I do not agree that the rule needs fixing, though I do understand your position. I cannot offer any other comments on this subject. Apparently we must agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 It's ok I am just simple minded so I like simple solutions. All that extra mag, reload 1, put in pocket do a double backflip stuff is to tricky for me to RO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 As I read that thread I changed my mind about 3 times. I can see this both ways. What really irks me is that the RO knew the shooter did this and let him start the COF. I know its the nats and all and its really not his job to correct the shooter and all, but then he takes several shooters down range and coaches them because they broke the 90(180). I just hope the dude that breaks the 180, has a AD and shoots somebody did'nt have more than 10rds in his mag, what ever happened to the assist the shooter part. I'm sorry the guy got bumped to open, I'm glad nobody got DQed or hurt but this deal is all out of reason. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 First off...let me say that I agree...this is a silly rule...this is a silly rule...this is a silly rule. The question of when the COF starts has been covered over and over again. It is stressed at RO classes and talked about everywhere. Quite simply, the COF starts with LAMR. 8.3.4 merely defines what the "Start signal" means (and yes, that appears to be poorly worded too) Even with all that in mind...and knowing the answer... The first thing I did when the Range Master pulled up (my GM buddy was bumped to Open) was to ask him, "...when does the COF start"? I then went next door and asked that stage's CRO the same questions (they didn't have shooters at the time). The COF starts at LAMR This is important to know...it comes up in other areas (like a dropped gun). Here is the question I have...why is everybody getting so bent about this??? This is a rule, in a new Division, that has slipped thru the cracks. Voight has, apparently, agreed that it is bogus...and he has plans to change it...from what I heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 8.3.4 merely defines what the "Start signal" means (and yes, that appears to be poorly worded too) Thanks for making my point Flex! Glad to hear MV might do something about it. I know when the COF starts, BUT some bloke who is new and gets his rulebook and goes to a big match might not if he just read the rulebook. I am done RANTING now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 What really irks me is that the RO knew the shooter did this and let him start the COF. I know its the nats and all and its really not his job to correct the shooter and all... I was there. And, that is NOT what happened in any way. The RO has no clue at the start. They don't stand there and count the rounds a competitor puts in the gun. The ONLY way the RO can tell is if the competitor shoots more than 11 without a reload...OR they see that the competitor, at LAMR, uses just one mag to prepare the gun (which would indicate 10 rounds total in the gun)...then the competitor who shoots ten would need to work the slide (shouldn't be one in the pipe if they started with 10). THIS is NOT a judgement call for the RO. The RO has no choice but to follow the book rules. ...but then he takes several shooters down range and coaches them because they broke the 90(180). Again... not what happened. On a completely different stage, I was one of the choosen few that received a 180 heads-up from the CRO after my run. The CRO, in a frinedly and professional manner, let me know that I was along the 180. In his judgement he couldn't say for certain that I had broke the 180. I appreicated the advice (I usually don't think the RO should inject any extra 'thoughts". But in this case, it was appropriate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 We're talking about production and L-10 right. Nobody brought up the easiest solution. Or if they did I missed it. You can only use 10 round mags. Period. These classes were brought about to bring in new shooters anyway, right? Current production guns and L-10 (single stacks) can only be purchased with 10 round mags, right? So there is an easy fix. You can only use 10 round mags! If you're shooting a full house limited STI with 18 rd. mags, why are you shooting in L-10 anyway? Or if you're shooting a Glock, Sig or some other production gun, then there are plenty of 10 round mags available at a low cost. I don't shoot either class very often, but this was such a hot topic, I had to chime in. Have a nice day. Smitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custom Glock Racing Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 Smitty, Some of us bought Glocks before the hipcap ban that came with hicap mags or otherwise bought preban mags. Besides, with Glocks alot of the 10 round mags do not work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Right. Matt makes a good point. I shoot a Glock in Limited (with full-capacity mags). The Factory Gun Nationals is just for Limited 10, Production & Revolver. The Race Gun Nationals (later this year, in Oregon) is for Open and Limited. Lots of 10 round mags just don't work well...and it would be an extra expense to buy 4-6 of them. (I don't have extra hundred dollar bills ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Some say this is addressedin the rule but it is not. It is simply an Interpretation of a vague rule. Additonally depending on how you read the book you dont start the course until you fire your first round. If the stage has not started yet you can't have had more than 10 rounds in your gun during the course. Matt, This is CLEARLY addressed in the Rulebook. No vagueness, no interpretation. Appendix E, US Divisions Production Division Magazine capacity restrictions - Yes, 10 rounds maximum in magazine The above is a direct quote from the rulebook. States nothing about the start, course of fire, LAMR, it's a DIVISION requirement. The same as not being able to sign up in Limited with an Open gun or using 170mm mags in Limited. If you are going to shoot Production (or Limited 10) you are simply not allowed to load you magazines with more than 10 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 The other thread was needlesly locked as there still seems to be people that want to discuss this. This is a competition shooting forum. Our host has graciously agreed to allow us to wander off onto some other topics - however, this particular RULES discussion was degenerating fast and clearly cannot be resolved by any of us on this forum. I am locking this thread, again, please do not restart it, unless you have new and relevant information about the RULE that it pertains to. (However, the Hate forum is available for any ranting y'all may need to do on the subject!) Thank You! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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