Im New here and need help

[Xmdog]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum, but have been shooting for about 8 years. I have a huge problem, that seems to be getting worse. For some reason, I have been shhoting way left and a tad low of my target...even at close range.

If I aim about 2 feet left of my intended target I usually hit dead on, but about an inch or 2 low. I've tried switching my grip, different pistols, different callibers, but I cant figgure out what Im doing wrong. Actually this problem has gotten worse over the years, and Im getting truely frustrated.

Any help or any reading material to help me out would be appreciated, as I love shooting but for some reason my failure to properly hit the target has become progressively frustrating.

Thanks for helping out a new guy...any help will be greatly appreciated.

(Edited by Xmdog at 11:30 pm on June 22, 2002)

[Phil Dunlop]

Xmdog,

what do your sights do when you dry fire?

Do you watch them right through the trigger break, do they move if you do, and which way?

P.D.

[Flexmoney]

Xmdog,

Sounds like a problem with basic shooting fundamentals.  It is probably not a problem with the grip, the pistol, or the caliber.  It is likely the shooter...which is good.  We can help you fix that.

While I don't think that your grip and stance are the source of your trouble...here is the link to a great "how to" on the grip and stance.  It is from Grand Master shooter, Mattburkett:

http://www.mattburkett.com/1.html

O.K., back to your situation...

First, here is a link that explains sight alingment:

http://www.sportshooter.com/improving/dalt...undamentals.htm

Check that out and let us know what you think.

[bonedaddy]

X-dawg!  Man, you came to the right place.  And we are glad you did!  

     The results you have described sound very much like you are allowing the movement of your trigger finger to disturb the aim of your pistol.   Unless we have trained our hand to move the trigger finger with out moving the rest of the fingers,  the aim almost cetainly will be disturbed.   If you really want to see a good example of this phenomon, try moving your ring finger while you keep the rest of your fingers completely still.  The fingers of our hands are trained to work in concert with each other almost from birth.   When you curl the index finger inward upon the trigger, the other fingers want to naturally curl in with it and the gun points low and left.  I don't know what kind of gun you are using, but the longer and heavier the trigger pull, the more pronounced the problem will become.  

   To gain control of bullet placement, the movement of the trigger finger must be totally isolated. And it must press directly to the rear.   Like Phil recommended, this is an area where dry-fire will work wonders.   Practice with an empty brass case balanced on the front sight.  If you are doing everything correctly, the case will remain in place.  

    I met a guy last week who was having the very same problem.  I wanted to help, but I was only passing through on my lunch break and shouldn't have even been at the range.   I felt bad about not helping a fellow shooter.  Maybe this is a chance to restore my karma.   I hope it helps.  -Sam

[Chriss Grube]

Sounds like you have several problems. Without watching you shoot it sounds like BD hit the trigger finger issue. Another problem is breaking your wrist and jerking due to anticipating the recoil. Squeeze the trigger. This goes back to the grip and follow through. It is actually a pretty common problem with shooters. Very few people are actually decent shots with a pistol. Those that are have spent 1000's of rounds and hours learning to shoot. Dry fire practice will help with the jerking the trigger. A good drill to see this on the range is to have someone else load your mag and through a dummy round in the mag somewhere. When you hit the dummy you'll see the gun jerk low and left. A .22 is real good for getting used to the proper techniques without the recoil issue.

[Flexmoney]

Xmdog,

You have some good shooters chiming in on this problem.  They are all happy to do so because they like to help people out...and, more importantly, they know what you are experiencing.  

You have developed what we call a flinch.  It is very common.  Even the top shooters have to practice a lot to keep from having it appear in their shooting.  A big part of the flinch is the fact that the shooter has an explosion going off in their hands every time they pull the trigger.  It is loud.  The body has a natural tendency to flinch.  We must learn to overcome this to progress in our shooting.  I like for a shooters to use double hearing protection.  Good foam ear plugs (over 30db reduction) and quality ear muffs (something that offers more than a reduction in the lower 20 db's, go for 30 here too.)  Also, know that the gun won't hurt you.  Everything is designed to go out the business end.  If you have a modern firearm and quality ammo...no worries.  

All this that we are talking about is in support of the main issue.  Which is learning to call the shot.  Brian Enos probably covers this better than most anybody.  Get Brian's book.  It will save you hundreds of dollars in ammo cost (and frustration).

One of the first things that Brian brings up in his book is:

"Locate the target.  Get the gun on the target.  Keep the gun on the target while you fire the shot.

As simple as that sounds, the keeping of the gun on the target until the bullet has left the barrel sometimes gets amazingly difficult.

A shooter simply has to except that if they have the sights properly aligned, and the sights are held on target...it is impossible to miss.  Impossible to miss.  If the shooter misses...it wasn't the guns fault.  The shooter has disturbed the alignment and/or the hold.  (This is the flinch...if you miss, you flinched)

(Edited by Flexmoney at 11:36 am on June 23, 2002)

[Xmdog]

Ok, Now that I read all your posts, and my original post...I made a newbie-error. I said if I aim 2 feet left of the target I will be dead-on....Woops! I meant, and I wont go back on this.....Is if I aim 2 feet Right of the Target I will be dead on. Again, if I aim 2 feet Right of the Target I will be dead on.

When it comes to 22 pistol shooting, I can honestly say I can overlap any number of given rounds to cover a quarter at 50 feet. I know this aint great, but with the .22LR pistol Im dead on. And I use a Browing BuckMark for .22, thus I aint shooting no fancy rig.

Now...When I lean up against a dividing wall, I get within 4 to 5 inches of my point of aim at about 50 feet with my .40 or .357 Sig, however as a soon to be LEO...Im really dreading my shooting qualification in about 3 months. I wont be able to lean on any wall, moreover...Im not trying to impress anyone with some super-human shooting skill. Rather, I would like to correct my shooting problem so My life wont be compromised due to my own shooting problems.

I really am glad I found this forum....great reading here...I belong to a few other forums, but this is by far the most useful for serious shooting application.

[Xmdog]

I shoot Sigs...in 226 and 229, both being .40cal, and .357Sig.

Secondly, I dont have the problem of not knowing how many rounds I have left, I dont really focus on counting rounds...but I am aware when my slide is open, thus Im not firing with an empty mag.

Also, if I use a sandbag to rest my arms on, I am again dead on target....I've had a few people say maybe I was gun shy, so I purchased some Peltor 7s and also use foam ear plugs...thus everything is dead quiet...I can hardly hear any gunshot.

I try to focus on my fron sight, and it seems my first shot is usually on the mark, but any other follow through shots are again far left. I read the following links above, and the links provided great info. I wish someone had a picture of a proper hand grip on a pistol, reading and looking are different things. I'm a large guy, and have strong wrists and forearms, thus I dont think Im limp wristing, however I have been extending my right arm all the way forward, and keep a slight bend in my left arm....I may try the advice in the link above and keep my left arm straight, and keep more of a bend in my right arm.

Im gonna shoot again this Wednesday, so keep the tips rolling in---as I will try anything useful to help me overcome this problem. I very much appreciate the experience of the shooters on this board...I want tho thank you all in helping me solve this problem.

[Steve Anderson]

At the indoor range where I shoot, it is very common for someone to buy a gun, take it out to the range, shoot 50, then take the gun back to the retail side and say,

"this thing shoots low and left. I need the sights adjusted."

The guy behind the counter smiles, and says,

"OK, but let me shoot it first and see how much to adjust it."

He then goes out and puts 10 in one hole at 20 - 30 ft, gives the customer a lesson in sight picture and trigger control, and goes back to work.

I wish we could blame the gun, but we normally can't.

Which part of your finger are you using to pull the trigger? This is sometimes a culprit.

SA

[Xmdog]

Steve,

Im definately not blaming this on the pistols. I realize and admit this is totaly my problem, and have known this has been my problem for quite some time. I dont think you were insinuating that I was blaming the pistol, but I just want to make clear this is my problem, and the pistols are Not the Problem.

As far as what part of the finger I use....this has changed to try and correct my problem. I first used just the tip of my pad, as shooting a rifle, than I switched to using the whole pad, just shy of the knuckel..now, Im trying the whle pad up to the knuckel...which does not seem natural to me, but as I said Im trying different things to try and correct my problem.

Unfortunately I have to work in about an hour and wont be on until about 11:45 pm tonight, so any input and comments will be made when Im home...Dont think Im ignoring this thread because Im not posting anymore...Just have to work...Hope to see some more great advice tonight! Thanks again.

Xmdog out, from the great state of Minnesota.

p.s. Where can I get Brian's book? How much is it? My father and I would be more than willing to add some more "Quality" reading to our library.

(Edited by Xmdog at 10:38 am on June 23, 2002)

(Edited by Xmdog at 10:43 am on June 23, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

"I try to focus on my fron sight, and it seems my first shot is usually on the mark, but any other follow through shots are again far left."

Classic flinch.  And, as you stated...you may be gun shy.  Again, that is natural.  You are fine with the .22 and you are fine with the first shot.  

Now...I don't care if you lay on your back...grip the gun with your feet...and press the trigger with a hammer mashed, bloody nub of a finger...

If the sights stay aligned until the bullet leaves the barrel...you will hit the bulls-eye.

The problem, with most shooters (me incluced), is that they get the sights aligned...think NOW...then start the trigger press (and close theirs eyes...tense their grip...all kinds of things).

You have to see the sights on the target thru the trigger press.  If you do...it's a hit.  

Bonedaddy mentioned dry-fire practice.  Here is a whole thread that talks about just that.

http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=5&topic=56

When you do make it back to the range.  Don't shoot past 5-7 yards.  Don't look for your hits (Many look over the top of the gun to see where the bullet went...which leads to moving the gun off target).  Don't even think about your hits.  Your goal should be to watch the front sight.  You should be able to see the front sight lift out of the notch during recoil.  

If you need to, put a black t-shirt over a piece of cardboard.  Use that as your target.  Bring it in close.  Then forget about it.  The goal is to see the sight lift, not hit the target.

I need to quit rambling on here.  There are a lot of threads we can point you to that cover just about every aspect of this stuff.  

[danny]

It sounds as if you shoot a weaver stance Xmdog an after you start shooting you have some head movment and possibly an eye dominant problem. Find your dominant eye and go from there. Then I would break yourself from the weaver stance and start shooting with both eyes open. Its been years sense i read brians book but belive he covers the eye problem in there some where  

[bonedaddy]

http://www.brianenos.com/Qstore/c000001.htm

Here's a link to the book or just click on the >back to brianenos.com link at the top of this page.  

This book costs about the same as a box of store bought ammo.  The information it contains is priceless.  

[Chriss Grube]

Ok, you'll fit in in LE. I have the same type guys with the same problem. I get them 2 times a year and most don't practice in between. Try the dummy round in the gun. I'll bet you your next paycheck that the gun muzzle dips low left when you get to it. Get Matt Burkett's book and the videos. Brian's book is great but it is over the head of most new shooters. I've been shooting since I was 5 and I was confused the first 2 times through it. Matt's book is great for the proper techniques. I'm guessing that you are going through some type of training Acad. They should have a firearms instructor. He should be able to help you out. I say should because like anything else some are good and some are complete idiots.

[oldfella]

Every one here seems to have the solution to all my problems... worse than Xmdog's - the side of the barn is simply too small to hit.

I am new here, and new at handgun shooting.  I just bought a Glock 26, have shot no more than 100 rounds... bad, really bad!  These posts are very useful, but as you get old you need to re-wind many times over to comprehend what you have just read.  I'm going to hit the local book store or order the books you mentioned over the net; and, yes, I do need lots of practice and lots of help from  seasoned shooters at the practice range.  Thanks for helping an old dummy.

[Chriss Grube]

You have to order the books from the web. The glock 26 is hard to learn to shoot due to the grip size and the sight radius. Get the finger grip base pads for the mag they help a lot.

[Steve Anderson]

xmdog,

I know you were not blaming the blaster, I was just illustrating how common your problem is, and how many people refuse to believe it's them.

You know what your problem is, now you can fix it.

SA

[kaiserb]

I used to have the same problem only less drastic.  I was always shooting in the C Zone about 8" off center to the Left.  I found my problem was the position of my support hand in the grip.  A couple of quick changes in grip, a few hundred draw, present, dry fires and my shots are now in the A zone.  To analyze my grip I drew and presented with my eyes closed then opened my eyes and moved my head to see where the gun was aiming.  I changed my grip on my left hand and moved my right foot back about 1" and I was right on every time.  Try to find your natural point of aim and adjust your grip and stance to match.

[EricW]

xmdog,

Brian's book is the way to go, but in the interim, here is my recipe for attacking your problem.  I used to be EXACTLY where you are now and understand your predicament.  

1.  Relax while shooting.  Be in your happy place.  Seriously.  Stress is very destructive.  This leads to #2.

2.  Be neutral.  Don't strain.  Don't push.  Don't pull.  Don't assume an isometric Lotus position.  Just stand fully upright, facing the target and shove the gun out in front of you.  Keep your arms slightly bent, elbows low and have no strain in your shoulders.  This won't work unless you're relaxed.  I don't know your physiology, but relaxing was key to getting my natural point of aim.  Any straining and my sight will not naturally align on the draw.

3.  Practice balancing a coin on your front sight while you dry fire.  This will get your trigger control down.  When you get good, you will be able to snap several shots without the coin falling off.

4.  Buy, make, or borrow some dummy rounds.  Have a friend load your magazine for you with the dummies interspersed at random.  As soon as you hit a dummy shell, you'll see how you're pulling your gun off target.  Soon, you will improve your follow through so the gun is rock-steady when you hit a dud.

5.  Try to shoot some real matches before you go to qualify.  IPSC, IDPA, GSSF, pick something - it's all good.  This will help you get over the "game day" jitters.

6.  Resist the urge to over-practice.  Some days you'll shoot 100 rounds, make a breakthrough and it'll be time to go home.  Always stop on a high note.  Never pound away, X number of rounds just because that's what's in your range bag.

Good luck with your new career!  You'll be great!

E

[benos]

Good stuff guys!

Kyle, and bonedaddy -

lol - you guys are great with your links!

be

[Duane Thomas]

You might consider getting a SIG P226 in 9mm. It's one of my favorite guns, and the 9mm is after all what the piece was initially designed to work with. The .40 S&W and .357 SIG are a bit hard kicking for someone who's trying to get rid of a flinch problem. Just a thought.

Ditto on the advice to bring the targets in close to start with. And for months thereafter. I start students with the target at 5 yards. There's no point in going for distance as a new shooter. You won't be able to hit the target and it will be an exercise in frustration.

The problem on shooting low left is, as has been previously mentioned, usually caused by, as you curl your index finger to pull the trigger, all the other fingers curl as well. This is usually called "crushing the gun." Basically you're making a fist every time you fire the gun, and this pulls your shots low left. Dry fire practice can help immensely in this area. Also - and this may sound silly at first, but I assure you this works - simply practice curling your hand as if you were holding a gun and then move your index finger back and forth like you were pulling a trigger. Watch what happens to your other fingers while this happens. I'll bet they curl inward at the same time. Concentrate on isolating your trigger finger from the rest of the hand. Nothing moves but the index finger, straight to the rear, straight to the front, back and forth like a little metronome.

Learn to hit your trigger reset point after ever shot and don't let the trigger return forward any further than that point. Concentrate on making your trigger pull, both to the rear and then back out again, the same speed. Neither of these things has to happen particuarly fast to start with BTW. It's just a back and forth movement with the finger moving at a constant speed in both directions.

On the DA first shot, avoid "staging" the trigger, which means the trigger moves to the rear in little stops and starts. The ideal DA trigger pull should be one smooth, continuous, rolling motion. Like a pendulum, whoosh! all the way through. Again, this doesn't mean you have to do this particularly fast. It doesn't mean you have to do it particularly slowly. Just do it smoothly, at a comfortable speed, whatever that may be.

Ditch the "right arm straight, left arm bent" thing. One of the reasons your shots are going left is probably simply that you're pulling on the gun to the left with your left hand and arm.

Stand basically upright, with a slight forward lean. Note the comment on "slight." Get your shoulders in front of your hips, and your ears in front of your shoulders. Commit your body weight forward behind the gun so it doesn't shove you back when it goes off. You don't have to exaggerate the forward lean, just enough to get the job done. Take half a step forward with your offside leg to brace yourself with the forward lean.

Forget the "keep both eyes open" thing. I think the ideal of keeping both eyes open while shooting is SEVERELY overrated. The problem is that many people, when they shoot with both eyes open, see two front sights. If you need to squint the non-dominant eye....squint the non-dominant eye! Big deal.

That's all that occurs to me for now. More later, maybe. Hang in there! Major improvement is just around the corner.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 5:40 pm on Sep. 16, 2002)

[SiG Lady]

I'm going to have to share my finest secret here:  I, too, shoot SiG (P-239, P229), and for what it's worth, it goes like this:  "Squeeze, don't pull."  The trigger, that is.  Or, as one of my first instructors said, "Finesse the trigger."  Just pull straight back GENTLY (GENTLY!!) and if your front sight is over the center of the target, betcha anything that's where your bullet will land.  Works for me... at most any distance.