L.E. Category

[Jon Merricks]

This is a question for mainly Law Enforcement but anybody feel free to chime in.

As I of over results of a match I look at the Categories too. Like Top JR, Top Lady and so on and so on.

Really there is not much of a question if about your age or sex. All of that is pretty apparent. But as I look at the LE category I do have some question. The rule book says Full Time Paid Law Enforcement with arrest powers. To me that’s pretty clear. But I do see lots of folks that are in L.E. but as a part-time reserve.

For those that don’t know what that means I'll tell you. In most jurisdictions a reserve L.E. is very similar to the Military National Guard or Army Reserve's. An individual has completed basically the same training as someone that is full time, but they just work part time, but often in L.E. it is not for pay. They have full time jobs doing something else but just do the reserves work for fun.

So my question is when it is known that a shooter is signing up as an L.E. when they are only a reserve is this a big deal. Or am I just being anal.

Yes it is a little bothersome to me that someone that has never had to support their family and put up with what a Full timer does portrays themselves as one.

[ong45]

I'm with you on this Jon, at last years steel challenge, my buddy would have won the top le money but someone who i will not name,(famous revolver shooter) had signed up for le. I am pretty sure that he is not a full time peace officer, it is an insult to the officers who do this for a living.

James

[Bill Nesbitt]

I am a Reserve Officer for a small town. I don't sign up for LE awards. I leave that for the full time officers.

One famous revolver shooter that I know of used to be a full time deputy sheriff. I don't know if he is still full time.

Bill Nesbitt

[Chriss Grube]

Personally I think it should be eliminated unless you show up shooting duty gear and your duty gun. Half the matches list it and half don't so I never really paid much attention.

[BrianH]

I'm with you on this Jon, at last years steel challenge, my buddy would have won the top le money but someone who i will not name,(famous revolver shooter) had signed up for le. I am pretty sure that he is not a full time peace officer, it is an insult to the officers who do this for a living.

James

And a buddy of MINE took third instead of second, after eleven years on the street. Pissed me off, too.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

For what it's worth, this is precisely why IPSC does not have any employment or vocational categories.

Apart from the fact that it seems a bit unfair to highlight just 1 or 2 vocations for special mention (e.g why not have a "Security Guard" category?), defining who qualifies is difficult and subject to interpretation.

And the definition "full time with arrest powers" won't cut it either because, for example, the Hong Kong Auxilliary Police work part-time too, but they carry guns on duty, they have powers of arrest and they get extremely "up close & personal" with scumbags, but these guys would be excluded from LE as currently defined.

With only sex and age categories, the distinctions are clear and unambiguous.

Of course even under IPSC rules, there's nothing stopping an individual Region defining additional categories, purely for domestic recognition, and this happens (e.g. the Philippines has a "Celebrity" category), but I've yet to see a vocational category clearly define the intended participants.

[mpolans]

Hi guys,

For what it's worth, this is precisely why IPSC does not have any employment or vocational categories.

Apart from the fact that it seems a bit unfair to highlight just 1 or 2 vocations for special mention (e.g why not have a "Security Guard" category?), defining who qualifies is difficult and subject to interpretation.

And the definition "full time with arrest powers" won't cut it either because, for example, the Hong Kong Auxilliary Police work part-time too, but they carry guns on duty, they have powers of arrest and they get extremely "up close & personal" with scumbags, but these guys would be excluded from LE as currently defined.

With only sex and age categories, the distinctions are clear and unambiguous.

Of course even under IPSC rules, there's nothing stopping an individual Region defining additional categories, purely for domestic recognition, and this happens (e.g. the Philippines has a "Celebrity" category), but I've yet to see a vocational category clearly define the intended participants.

Really??? What types of celebrities shoot IPSC in the Philippines? Actors? Singers? Also, whatever happened to Jethro Dionisio?

[Vince Pinto]

mpolans,

The celebrities in the Philippines include "All of the above", but the most prominent is actor/producer/director Eddie Garcia, who generally plays "Clint Eastwood" type roles, but also "Jim Carrey" type roles. See this website or this website.

"Manoy" (his nickname) is a very talented actor and a damned good IPSC shooter, especially considering he's +70 years old. When you see one of his many movies, his gun handling skills are both safe and exemplary. He's truly a gentleman, one of my favorite guys, and I would happily endorse him as the "poster boy" for IPSC, at least in the Philippines.

I'll never forget we had dinner together in a town called Ormoc (2 hours from Cebu) one time and, as we were walking back to our hotel afterwards, there were something like a dozen or so young girls following us and giggling. Sadly, they weren't following me

These days Jethro is an Olympic hopeful, who spends most of his time shooting Trap and Skeet or running his businesses, which includes a bunch of gun shops and shooting ranges. In fact, the only time I see him these days is at Philippine gun shows.

Check out Jethro's website but sorry about all the pop-ups.

[gmshtr]

Celebrities don't carry a gun for a living to protect the lives and safety of others. Neither do "Security Guards." They provide security to assorted premises or properties. High Law and High Military awards are appropriate and are good incentive to encourage a higher level of profeciency for these people who may rely on their abilities with a firearm to save themselves or someone else.

When I first started shooting major USPSA matches, my goal was High Law. It helped make me the shooter I am now.

Because of practical shooting, I am more confident in my ability to use my firearm. And although I use a CR Speed setup, it HAS improved my speed and proficency with my duty gear (average .9sec 1st shot and 1.2sec reload at 7 yd target). Not bragging, just needing to disagree with Chris. Rule #1 - Equipment doesn't matter - Case and point....Dave Sevigny at WSXIII beating all the Production guys using "race holsters and pouches"

Phil Strader

Full-Time LEO

[Vince Pinto]

Phil,

OK, what about Bodyguards? Surely they fit your "carry a gun for a living to protect the lives and safety of others" criteria but they don't qualify under the official definition "Full Time Paid Law Enforcement with arrest powers".

And that's precisely my point. Trying to base categories on employment or vocation is extremely difficult, if not impossible, because you either exclude some people who deserve to qualify or you make it so open, anybody can qualify.

Believe me when I tell you that I have nothing against LEO's. If for no other reason, my primary business is Law Enforcement Products, and I deal with LEO's professionally or privately almost on a 24/7 basis.

As I explianed earlier, just the words "Full Time" already excludes many thousands of frontline LEO's in my neck of the woods.

And in respect of Military Category, I wonder if "On current active duty" means the US National Guard (or other reservists) qualify all the time, or only if and when they are actually called up?

[Chriss Grube]

Phil,

I agree that shooting comp will improve your gunhandling skills even with the duty gear. My problem is that there are very few of us shooting. I know of maybe 10-12 in Area 8. MASC limited there were 4 of us I I wasn't listed. Personally I think it just waters down everything by giving awards to everybody. We have 5 divisions, 6 classes, 6 sub class awards. Awards are nice but I would rather look at the results and see that you only kicked my butt by 37% than win a plaque for high shooter wearing a red shirt with green shoes in the under 90 age group. The biggest problem I see in our guys not playing is the attitude that they don't want to look bad when they carry a gun for a living. The schedule we work doesn't help either.

[Wakal]

Speaking as full time military and military LE...I really see no reason for any of the special categories, much less mil and LE. Segregating our sport into "woman" and "old geezer" seems just as insulting as other affirmative action programs.

Stand on your hind legs and shoot...giving a special plaque to the "green shirt/red pants on Tuesday" (love that visual, BTW) shooter is counterproductive. Everything after match winner is just first loser, second loser, third loser...

That said, if we want to have special categories, lets play special categories for real. Show up with a SSIII and a stock (and I mean STOCK, as in "legal for LE carry" stock, not "1/2lb trigger, titanium gizmo, helium-filled ninja-issue "stock"") Glock...or a nice flap holster and a as-issued M9...

Alex

[John Thompson]

I like the LE/Military catagory too. There are some downsides with guys with D cards competing against open master card guys or even just limited master. I have mixed feelings about the duty rig thing. I shoot to get away from work and don't care to be walking around with the symbol of it(the rig) at matches. I wore my duty rig at an IDPA championship match with a production gun and got to compete against Scott Warren's .38 super from an IDPA speed rig. I was disappointed that the IDPA didn't require the duty rig in a sport that was supposed to be the "real practical shooting sport", I won't make that mistake again. I realize that Warren and other plain clothes guys don't wear duty rigs with security holsters. I accept it but am alos going to wear the same as them for now on.