barney round rule?

[shoot]

I can't find a rule that says we must load up 11 on first mag every course of fire. Max +1 ... barney rule ?

Anyone got a page in the rulebook on that one.

I know we have option to load a barney but I can't find the rule that says if we don't it's a procedural even if no one states it in the course of fire instruction. They only started enforcing that one last night and sometimes I can't tell when they are kidding or not.

[Jim Watson]

Page 19 (als0 21 and 23 for other Divisons)

2. Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)

Handguns permitted for use in this division must:

G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the

magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division

capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine

capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine

plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the

same capacity magazines through out the competition

Now, it doesn't say that the penalty for not doing what the rule says you MUST do is a Procedural, but that is the only tool I, as SO or MD have to enforce the rule. There was a long thread here once about such things, when the rules specify what is to be done but do not state a penalty for not complying. All I have to say about that is that such bedroll lawyer quibbling over the minutae of the rules falls under the definition of FTDR.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Jim Watson

[shoot]

Thank you for the reply.

Main problem I had was they never enforced it before but in our area there is a snip with IPSC top guns.

IPSC habits and gaming the stage gets some people mad I think. I love it all

When in rome do as the romans ... behind cover.

thanks again

[Bill Nesbitt]

When in rome do as the romans ... behind cover.

I love it.

[Greg Bell]

Great line!

Amazing around here SO's who don't see reloads at the wrong point when the gun is down loaded a round. I always let the shooter know in a polite manner, hey they didn't ding you but you really need to be loaded up to division capacity.

[Joe4d]

before offering your comment do you ask what the capacity of their gun is ? Or just make an assumption ? If you said it to me I would probably tell you in a just as polite way that you needed to mind your own business. I had an issue with this when I first started out and instead of arguing the point with the SO or complaining to the MD I tried to comply with the SO even though he didnt know what he was talking about. And was screwed on 2 stages. During the 10 round mag days many ESP and SSP guns came with factory Mecgar 10 round mags the half plastic half steel mags would hold ten barely but be allmost impossible to seat. In two of my guns if you got them to seat the slide wouldnt cycle when fired. Specifically a Browning Hipower and a Walther P99. You could only seat a 10 round mag if you were at slide lock. The manual that came with the Browning actually listed capacity as 10 "Including one in the chamber" So I started carrying the manual around with me and broke it out a few times when my 9+1 was questioned.

[Greg Bell]

Joe,

Touch a nerve did I? Well I did say polite didn't I? For example if you see a SSP Glock shooter go to slidelock after 10 rounds that doesn't strike you as odd? Does the shooter not deserve the benefit a little help? It's not like I'm shouting it out for the SO so the guy gets dinged.

Oh and for the record I don't usually go around making assumptions.

Edited June 28, 2008 by Greg Bell

[Joe4d]

I really wouldnt pay much attention unless I was the SO and then I would ask if the weapon was capable of 10 +1 rather than assuming, which by your original statement you stated you always do, I dont know every weapon but I do know many blocked factory 10 round mags are so tight they will only seat at slidelock. I dont think the rules were meant to force someone to use gear in a manner that doesnt work properly. IDPA seems to have many or at least with random selection Ive run into many peanut gallery instructors. That make assumptions like that all the time and then take it upon themselves to educate the masses. Not saying your like that or not, just going off your original statement of always correcting the shooter, key word always, and no mention about asking about capacity first or even if the shooter is familiar with the rules or not so your second statement of not making assumptions is mutually exclusive of the first. But too your Glock analogy, because of my previous experience with blocked and cut down factory 10 round mags, I would give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and ask about his mechanical capacity before making an assumption I am only familiar with a few brands of weapons and I have seen some USPSA Glock shooters load 10 only because of the same issue.

[revchuck]

Joe - While I understand what you're saying about ten round mags not seating with the slide forward, using them can definitely cause eyebrows to rise. It's common to have a 12 round course of fire; a lot of folks like these becuase they require everyone to reload (at least) once. Assuming there are six targets, two rounds per target, all the ESP and SSP shooters have to shoot one round on the last target, reload behind cover, and re-engage the last target again...except the shooter with the weird mag that can't be seated with the slide forward, who reloads between targets and doesn't have to do the last target dance. My, how convenient. A new shooter would do this innocently; it's unlikely an experienced shooter would.

There are two ways I would handle this if it came to a protest at a sanctioned match: The shooter loads and shoots all mags the same way, regardless of how they function, just like in CDP, or FTDR based on intentional flaunting of the rules if s/he refuses.

I had to think about this a while. I've been an SO since '99, and I've never seen it come up before. At local matches peer pressure (like Greg's) takes care of it, and at sanctioned matches I can't imagine anyone showing up with a screwed-up mag.

The only ten round mags I use are for my Beretta 92 (four each factory and Mec-Gar), and they load fine with ten rounds and the slide forward.

[Greg Bell]

Joe,

I'm going to drop out from this one as you seem to think that I'm some jack ass know it all.

[SDM]

I use ten-round mags, they are cheap and there's no need to wear out good hi-caps when all I need is ten. The only time I won't do the Barney round thing is if there is a mandatory reload at 6, 8, or so rounds. Other than it's division capacity. If I couldn't get ten rounds in my ten-round mags, I'd get rid of them and use the 17-rounders. Sounds almost like exploiting an equipment problem to gain some perceived advantage (I don't see the real of advantage anyway)

As far as the "only started enforcing..." deal, it sounds like you need to decide if this is a match you want to shoot or not? I don't see it often at all (maybe I'm just blind) but routine deviations from the rulebook would make me consider not shooting the match. I'd think about spending my match fee elsewhere.

[Joe4d]

At the time I started doing 9 +1 with the Browning Hipower I didnt know enough about the game to see the advantage on the very common 12 round stages, Later I started running 9mm then 40 1911 specifically to exploit this advantage. But right after the 10 round ban I had a new Walther and Hipower, both came with the plastic half mecgar mags. They were so tight I actually had to load 9 and let them sit a couple weeks just to be able to squeeze 10 in. No way a tac load was happening with ten in the tube. So to comply with the all mags the same like was mentioned I always started with 10 reloaded with 9. I dont remember with the Walther but the Browning was backed up by the 1995 manual which said Capacity was 10 including one in the chamber. When this was an issue legally I couldnt get rid of the 10 rounders and get 17 rounders. IDPA was also supposed to be about using gear as it came from the factory. However I also made it a point to declare 9 round mags to the SO before I started similar to what I think is asked of CDP shooters. Maybe some confusion could be avoided:

1.If rules wernt selectively enforced. I have heard the, "you didnt get dinged, or I didnt ding you for it but you should......... " directed at a very large number of shooters. It's either a rule or it isnt if you agree to be a SO or RO at a match using a trademarked name you have a responsibility to follow that organizations rules. routine deviations are why I dont shoot IDPA anywhere anymore.

2. If Peers have a problem with shooters getting or not getting penalties the issue is with the SO not the shooter and should be brought up to the club or match director.

3. Shooters running outside the norm equipment or techniques have a responsibility to let the SO/MD know BEFORE starting the first stage.

[RobMoore]

I dont shoot IDPA anywhere anymore.

I was curious about the hostility till I read this part.

The rule book, as quoted above, does say 11 to start unless limited by the gun's capacity. However, seeing 9+1 guns in SSP is a rarity. Because it is such a rarity, if a shooter with such as weapon is at a match where the SOs don't know him, or haven't been informed of the capacity, the shooter must assume that he is going to get dinged when the reload comes at the wrong point. Its better to make sure they know, whether they ask you or you offer the info, rather than arguing the point after the course of fire when you're jazzed up and more likely to come across as angry.

On that note, if I am the SO, and observe a shooter load and make ready without using a barney mag or topping off afterwards, I'm going to assume he is 10+1. Otherwise he should load with 9 and top off, or use a barney mag.

Edited June 28, 2008 by RobMoore

[Nik Habicht]

Closed. Please remember to be polite --- even while you're passionate. Thank you,