Limited vs. Production

[gunnerBU]

I had a conversation with Pharaoh Bender a few days ago about shooting Limited with the exact same set up for production (other than gun) and it got me thinking...

The conversation started with us talking about the malfunctions I was having. I took off my magwell, and narrowed down the jams to one magazine. I asked him about shooting Limited without the magwell and did some searching about not using one....

Is a magwell really worth it for Limited? When switching from Limited to Production, I seem to have a hard time with reloads. My thinking is, if I don't use a magwell in Limited, then my reloads would be the same for each division assuming no basepads (next question).

Do you use basepads on your mags for limited? I'm not really sure, now that I think about it, if the extra 5 rounds in a mag make much of a difference since we reload on the move most of the time.

Do you use the same mag pouches in the same position when going back and forth between divisions? Like Bender said, do 1,000,000 reloads one way and 1000 another, and which one will be more automatic?

His thoughts really got me thinking about all of the equipment I use in Limited compared to Production.

EDIT: G35 for Limited and G34 for Production

Edited June 27, 2008 by gunnerBU

[Calmwater]

I have read Dave Sevigny does not use an external magwell in limited. Somebody does an internal magwell by filling in the hole with some sort of resin and grinding the well out. You could use a extended mag for your first one and do all your reloads with regular mags without much change in training but still have the benefit of your first high cap.

[austinkroe]

I have seen Dave shoot Limited and the only magwell to speak of is the one described by calmwater. I think that southpaw custom does a similar mod if not the one that Dave uses. Drop the magwell. If your gun does not run with it then dont use it; you need the gun to run 100% rather than to load .25sec faster. The only reason I have a big magwell on my gun is because I like how it pushes my hands up on the grip.

However, I did see him using mag extensions on all of his mags. I think that putting yourself at a capacity disadvantage is a poor choice for limited. I do not think that the extensions will change your reload dramatically so I would keep them. I have seen it posted here that even if you are moving while reloading you will add a half second to your time. If you limit the rounds in your mags then you also limit the options you have shooting a course and may have to do more loads than other limited shooters.

The placement does not matter as much as efficiency with the motions. Keep the mags where they are if you are comfortable with them there. Use your holster as well. Manny Bragg uses a DOH in limited and he has been doing very well.

[gunnerBU]

I have a DOH that I have been using and absolutely LOVE it.

I really liked how I had my mags for Limited. One dead center on my belt, and the rest closely behind, but this placement would be illegal in production, so I have a dilemma there...

[Flexmoney]

I started in Limited with a G35.

- stock recoil rod and spring

- no magwell

- good sights

- grip tape

- stock mag release (extended)

- stock slide release (NON-extended...the extended ones get bumped too easy, causing malfunctions)

My Limited gun was Production legal. When I switched to Production, all I did was put a bit less TiteGroup under my 180g bullets, moved my mag holders to the side, took the extended base pads off the mags, and lost the race holster.

The race holster isn't really needed for USPSA. We don't get that many pure draws in a match, and some of the Production legal holsters are pretty sporty anyway.

Mag pouch position... I recently shot Limited-10 and moved my mag pouches forward. that resulted in me skipping my first mag on about a dozen or more match stages.

Base pads are a must for Limited (but not L-10). +5 or so of 40 gets you through two arrays of targets (8 max in an array)...which is how many matches are setup. It gives you more choices on when and where to do the reload. Two mags are enough to get your through large field courses.

I never put a magwell on my Limited gun. I tried a few when I was running Limited. Most didn't feel well to me. Few fit the gun well. And, some could bind the mags up when the screws holding them on where torqued down too much. There have been some newer magwells in the past few years that might prove nice...I just don't need one. (Except for standards/classifiers...you only reload once per stage anyway in Limited).

[gunnerBU]

Very true, most matches do have 4 target arrays, so the extra 5 rounds would make a huge difference.

Do you use mag pouches that can adjust the angle, like CR etc.?

[Flexmoney]

Yeah....mine are my Safariland single pouches from my Limited days (for the first three mags), then a double mag pouch after that. Here is a pic of the production setup (no...not really a lefty...just a little photo flip)

Gotta run them pretty verticle to get them on the belt nicely.

[Matt Griffin]

I agree about the holsters; in major matches I would conservatively guess that only two stages have you drawing to a target. The majority are designed, if the gun is holstered at all, where you will appreciate the extra stability of a DOH. I'm in the process of moving to one myself.

However, magwells are nice, IMHO. I use the THE brass, and I really like the shape of the grip with it. My hand fits between the well and the beaverstub exactly, and I've never had any sort of binding problem with it.

I would also recommend basepads in L10, it makes grabbing and seating the mag much easier.

H.

[Shawn Knight]

It is really not that hard to do the magwell fill and grind yourself. I did it using marine epoxy and a dremel. One of the few things I have not screwed up with my dremel.

[Graham Smith]

[in limited] Two mags are enough to get your through large field courses.

That is one thing that kills me in Production. You need four mags on the belt but have to move them to places where they are hard to get to. With most of the mag pouches I have tried, the fourth mag is half-way round my back. I've been looking at the Belt Feed from Comp-Tac as a solution, but am not happy spending $125 for a set of 4 pouches! <sigh>

[gunnerBU]

However, magwells are nice, IMHO. I use the THE brass, and I really like the shape of the grip with it.

My hand fits between the well and the beaverstub exactly, and I've never had any sort of binding problem with it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my magwell, it makes reloads so effortless and helps to keep my grip high on the gun.

I just don't want to use it if it would ever cause a problem, and in my case, it obviously was.

[Shawn Knight]

Strangely enough, to me, the Belt feed doesn't seem to work any better than single pouches.

[Micah]

The way I conveyed it to gunnerBU was this:

If you have done 1,000,000 reloads without a magwell and 1,000 with a magwell,

if you have done 1,000,000 draws with a DOH and 1,000 with a Ghost holster,

if you reach to your hip 1,000,000 times for your first relaod and to your navel for 1,000,

where do you think your subconscious is going to carry you for number 1,001,001?

I make this summary based on the cognitive view of the characteristics of learning. Try and fathom how difficult it would be to read this post if you had to make a conscious effort to use all of the reading mechanics that you have been taught! Syntax, spelling, phonics, vocabulary...it would take a significant amount of work.

Now think about how you shoot a stage. Do you think about how your hands move on the draw, just how high the gun needs to be so that you can allign the sights, knowing how to align the sights, remembering to disengage the safety, recall which finger is used to pull the trigger, how to pull the trigger, keeping your finger out of the trigger, keeping the gun downrange, knowing where the mag release button is...on and on and on!

What we do in practice, and what I believe one of the greatest benefits of daily dryfire is, is to reduce the cognitive load by making the processes involved in shooting automatic. This is known as automaticity, and is one of the three universal methods that humans use to reduce the cognitive load (the other two being chunking and dual processing). Have you ever shot a stage, and the only two things that you really recall is "Standby" and "Unload and show clear"? This is a classic example of automaticity...in the same vein as not recalling much about your daily commute to work.

IF you are fluent in the use of a magwell, I submit that you will reap the strongest benefits of staying consistent with that format. IF you do not usually use a magwell, I maintain that you will have greater results keeping it that way.

Then again, I shoot a blue Glock

[racerba]

I shoot PD primarily and of course do not use a magwell. However, my limited gun has a magwell. Since I am used to reloading without a magwell, the magwell can only help me on those near misses when I shoot Limited. I do not shoot Limited enough that the magwell will harm me in PD. If the magwell is hindering the functionality of the gun, I would take it off.

The location of my mag pouches and holster stays in the same place for both divisions. Actually, I use the same rig.

[Flexmoney]

Nice post, Mr. Bender. Supports the...

Pick one and practice.

[kevin c]

I've been shooting Glocks these past two years.

I'll be doing the Production and L10 Nats back to back, and will use the same gun for both - a G35. The mags will be the same, the gun may change but only to have a heavier recoil spring and guide rod inside, and the rig will be the same as I use in Production, with mebbe one extra pouch in front.

[RevolverJockey]

Don't laugh because it is Ghetto, but what I have found works well for production is a M203/40mm mole pouch. Holds 4 mags vertically, exposes almost half the mag and they come out easily. Besides being about 30$, it fits on a 2" belt perfectly, and can also work for matches where belt space is at a premium. http://www.tacticaltailor.com/index.asp?Pa...D&ProdID=49 is a the address to the one I have - made here locally in Wa. Should be something similar on or near every Military base, or I am sure they would ship. I cut off the flaps, and added two more malice clips and just stradle a belt loop with on so it doesn't shift. Worth a try.

[Flexmoney]

The "mags come out easily" part would scare me. How tight are they?

[gunnerBU]

Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to shoot Production this month, and have already been working on reloading without the a magwell. There is a big difference without it, and I really have to focus when inserting the mag. From now on, I am going to shoot Limited without a magwell and see how it goes.

[conrad]

I started in L10 and now I shoot production, not much differance at all. Now I shoot in whatever Flex shoots in because he's tring to avoid me . (Just kidding)

[Flexmoney]

I started in L10 and now I shoot production, not much differance at all. Now I shoot in whatever Flex shoots in because he's tring to avoid me . (Just kidding)

I gotta avoid you. You drive around with a Barbie-doll on your dash. That's just weird.

[G-ManBart]

[in limited] Two mags are enough to get your through large field courses.

That is one thing that kills me in Production. You need four mags on the belt but have to move them to places where they are hard to get to. With most of the mag pouches I have tried, the fourth mag is half-way round my back. I've been looking at the Belt Feed from Comp-Tac as a solution, but am not happy spending $125 for a set of 4 pouches! <sigh>

I'm pretty limited on belt space and got a Belt-Feed for Single Stack....works very nicely. I don't think I've ever grabbed the wrong mag and it's more comfortable than having singles and doubles all the way to my spine. I add a single pouch behind it and have room for a second single if needed. I normally just stick my start mag and barney in my back pocket so I've got five on the belt for field courses. I'm not shooting any Production now, but if I was, I'd order up a Belt-Feed for that too....it's pricey, but not much more than buying four good singles, and less then some.

[Suburban Commando]

I had a scopemount induced doublefeed in a pin match, with a JP mag funnel, while using a mag without an extension.

RO - "Unload and show clear."

Me - "Uhhhh? Crap!"

I'd be afraid of having all my mags hit the dust while running to the next position, using the 40mm grenade pouch. I might be able to rig a quad pouch with tension adjustments out of kydex though. I'll have to give that some thought.