Pinned Grip Safety

[Johann the Horrible]

I'm trying to decided whether or not to pin my grip safety on my Open gun. How many of you guys do it? ...I guess I better read the rules first, eh?

Darren

the 1911 had the grip safety added for horse soldiers in case they dropped the pistol from the horse, not bouncing, etc.

Incidentally drop testing height even to this day in many cases is still derived from the same height as horseback (though I cannot remember the height of a horses back, they never let me have a horse)

This was something some NCO told me some boring place a 100 years ago

The lanyard loop goes back to virtually every military handgun from that time period having one provided (if you have been to ranger school you would be a lanyard guy too, though it's called a dummy chord for everything else)

I was at my very first 3 gun match and one of the top guys from the area had his blaster fall out of his holster pretty early in the match and have heard of people drawing their pistol and dropping them (maybe throwing them I guess)

It would be a shame for someone to catch a 200 grainer from you because you deactivated your grip safety

I dont disable safeties

I read somewhere( and so cannot be sure) that JB designed the 1911 originally without the manual safety and so the gun just had the grip safety. The story goes further that the military was not happy about the lack of a manual safety and so he added it at their insistence.

[dansy]

Pinned all mine....

[Irishlad]

If I were a smaller 1911 manufacture competing in this overly "crowded", look-a-like, copy-cat 1911 market...and 65% of the people pinned the grip safety, I'd "be" thinking of a new 1911 model that might actually be different and sell well. Something about listening to "customers", or something like that. It wouldn't be difficult to design, but it would take more thought then changing slide serration designs or deciding whether the slide or frame should be silver on this year's model.

Of course, since it's "labeled" a safety device, I'd investigate whether the grip safety actually performs any safety function...or any function for that matter! Not just keep it because the Army back in 1910 "thought" it might be good on a bucking horse.

That excludes the Kimber and S&W with their grip safety FP system, as poorly designed as they are, their grip safety does perform a "drop-safe" function. Simpler and better ways are used by other companies.

As usual, I could be wrong, but I'd still like to hear how a grip safety prevents any type of AD...just one example and "twirling" a 1911 with the thumb safety "off" doesn't count.

[mr1911]

There's actualy a well known 'smith out there I saw in a magazine about a year ago working on a 1-piece mainspring housing/grip safety filler piece for people who don't want a grip safety, but as usual lawyers are being consulted, and who knows if it will ever be marketed to the public, no matter how popular it would be.

Edited April 13, 2008 by mr1911

[JKSNIPER]

I'll e-mail a gunsmith friend of mine about this issue but I would thnk that mechanically deactivating a safety feature on your firearm is generally not such a good idea.

If a shooter ever had an N.D./A.D. and an injury/death was the result..... the "pinning" of the grip safety WILL become a hot issue for that shooter.

I would think its not a case of will they win the lawsuit its a case of how many zeros are going to be at the end of the number they award the family.

It might even result in criminal charges such as Reckless Endangerment even if no one is injured.

I don't think ANY manufacturer will stand behind such a practice so this poor shooter will be swinging in the breeze alone and unsupported.

I'll ask my friend but my first thoughts are it is a very bad idea.

JK

PS just FYI:

120.20 Reckless endangerment in the second degree.

A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the second degree when

he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of

serious physical injury to another person.

Reckless endangerment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

S 120.25 Reckless endangerment in the first degree.

A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the first degree when,

under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he

recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to

another person.

Reckless endangerment in the first degree is a class D felony.

[Chuck Anderson]

I think you would have a hard case making at case for Recklessly Endangering, unless there was some additional conduct. i.e. loaning your gun out to peple, or selling it without telling them it was deactivated. Deactivating a safety is not as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. And the deactivation would have to, in some way, lead to the incident. Since almost no other guns on the market even have this feature (since most guns aren't designed to be used by mounted cavalry) I think you would have a strong legal argument. That said, if you shoot someone or your gun is involved in a crime, (whether it was stolen from you or not), there's a good chance of criminal prosecution or civil lawsuit. It will be a topic, just like the hair trigger, textured grip (you know so you can hold on when it's covered in the blood of your victims), wide safeties (the quicker to shoot with).

[JKSNIPER]

Good points Lawman.

However....

The jury is not likely to be made up of IPSC/USPSA shooters .

They will largely be ignorant of the "commonality" of this practice.

The plaintiffs/district attorney will slam the you know what out of the point that "this firearm was altered by the user and had a safety device that was deactivated and if that safety device had been in place it would have saved this poor individual from...."

You have to ask :

"What would a REASONABLE person conclude?" and by a reasonable person they mean an average Joe off the street not a Master Class IPSC/USPSA shooter.

If a shooter has altered the safety device on a weapon is it reasonable to think this might result in death or other serious physical injury?

Remember for Reckless Endangerment you do not have to have death or SPI occur.

You only need the possibility of it occurring to be charged with it.

Still awaiting the reply of my gunsmith buddy.

JK

[dansy]

Good points Lawman.

However....

The jury is not likely to be made up of IPSC/USPSA shooters .

They will largely be ignorant of the "commonality" of this practice.

The plaintiffs/district attorney will slam the you know what out of the point that "this firearm was altered by the user and had a safety device that was deactivated and if that safety device had been in place it would have saved this poor individual from...."

You have to ask :

"What would a REASONABLE person conclude?" and by a reasonable person they mean an average Joe off the street not a Master Class IPSC/USPSA shooter.

If a shooter has altered the safety device on a weapon is it reasonable to think this might result in death or other serious physical injury?

Remember for Reckless Endangerment you do not have to have death or SPI occur.

You only need the possibility of it occurring to be charged with it.

Still awaiting the reply of my gunsmith buddy.

JK

The bottom line is you still got to press the trigger to release the shoot. safety or not! and when are loading you gun with people in front of you??

Like I said my grip are disable and will stay disable...all within the rules that you like it or not, I doesn't really matter what a gunsmith might say because I can also find some that see no problem with it!.

Edited April 13, 2008 by dansy

[Chuck Merriam]

The only time I would worry about my disabled grip safety, would be when I dropped my loaded gun. Then I would be glad for it to be there. I hope this will never happen...however it did at least twice this weekend on a stage at the SC State match! Also I did drop a unloaded gun running down a stage to do something and when it was picked up the hammer was cocked!

Edited April 14, 2008 by Chuck Merriam

[kgunz11]

Good points Lawman.

However....

The jury is not likely to be made up of IPSC/USPSA shooters .

They will largely be ignorant of the "commonality" of this practice.

The plaintiffs/district attorney will slam the you know what out of the point that "this firearm was altered by the user and had a safety device that was deactivated and if that safety device had been in place it would have saved this poor individual from...."

You have to ask :

"What would a REASONABLE person conclude?" and by a reasonable person they mean an average Joe off the street not a Master Class IPSC/USPSA shooter.

If a shooter has altered the safety device on a weapon is it reasonable to think this might result in death or other serious physical injury?

Remember for Reckless Endangerment you do not have to have death or SPI occur.

You only need the possibility of it occurring to be charged with it.

Still awaiting the reply of my gunsmith buddy.

JK

The bottom line is you still got to press the trigger to release the shoot. safety or not! and when are loading you gun with people in front of you??

Like I said my grip are disable and will stay disable...all within the rules that you like it or not, I doesn't really matter what a gunsmith might say because I can also find some that see no problem with it!.

You ever seen someone flip the gun out of the holster trying to draw fast? These guys with pinned safeties shoot what # trigger? If you don't see the potential for disaster here then you are jinxing yourself.

[JKSNIPER]

Dansy and all,

Not looking to upset anyone.

Just trying to convey a point that something that seems like its ok may in fact not be ok or a good idea.

I'm VERY aware that the "trigger still needs to be pressed" in order for an accident to happen.

Thats why they're called "accidents". Because no one meant for them to happen.

I was on a range last year when within 2-3 minutes there were not one but two A.D./N.D. incidents both involving highpower rifles (.308 cal).

If you would have told me that at this match where Open Bolt Indicator flags are mandatory there would be even one much less two accidental/negligent discharges within a 2-3 minute time span I would have told you to go get your head candled.

Anyone can have an accident.

We try to reduce the potential for this.

One way is by observing the safety regulations and another is by having certain features on our weapons to enhance our safety.

To deliberately modify a safety feature on your weapon to render it inoperable is to court disaster.

You may get away with it for a period of time...maybe until you become too old to shoot or lose interest and stop shooting in matches.

You may have it catch up with you tomorrow.

Why risk it?

Whats the risk vs reward here?

Risk of causing death/S.P.I. to another person to do what?

Shave a second off the time to shoot a stage?

Sorry guys but IMHO it's not worth it.

JK

[JimmyZip]

Dansy and all,

Not looking to upset anyone.

Just trying to convey a point that something that seems like its ok may in fact not be ok or a good idea.

I'm VERY aware that the "trigger still needs to be pressed" in order for an accident to happen.

Thats why they're called "accidents". Because no one meant for them to happen.

I was on a range last year when within 2-3 minutes there were not one but two A.D./N.D. incidents both involving highpower rifles (.308 cal).

If you would have told me that at this match where Open Bolt Indicator flags are mandatory there would be even one much less two accidental/negligent discharges within a 2-3 minute time span I would have told you to go get your head candled.

Anyone can have an accident.

We try to reduce the potential for this.

One way is by observing the safety regulations and another is by having certain features on our weapons to enhance our safety.

To deliberately modify a safety feature on your weapon to render it inoperable is to court disaster.

You may get away with it for a period of time...maybe until you become too old to shoot or lose interest and stop shooting in matches.

You may have it catch up with you tomorrow.

Why risk it?

Whats the risk vs reward here?

Risk of causing death/S.P.I. to another person to do what?

Shave a second off the time to shoot a stage?

Sorry guys but IMHO it's not worth it.

JK

Get your head candled? What does that mean?

That just tickled me to death!

[Flexmoney]

This thread has ran it's course and we are off into the old debates.

For those that have never read a thread that goes back and forth on the "pinning the grip safety" issue, please go back to the start of the internet and start reading.

Closed.

- Admin.