Movement While Reloading Lim Shotgun

[GordonB]

Just wondering what everybody's experience was and what they think is faster.

With pistol it's almost a no-brainer... reload while you move.

But with SG's it's not always just one trip to the gun's reloading port. In some cases topping off the tube will require up to four trips to the belt/side saddle/arm band etc. So with limited SG:

Do you guys ALWAYS move while reloading?

Or do you stop, reload and then go?

I know your response may depend on the course.

So at what distance between firing boxes/areas do you decide when to reload while either moving or remain static?

At what # of rounds (that you need to reload) do you either remain static or move? (For example, if it was only 1-2 rounds I need, I will deviate from my stronghand reload technique and switch to weakhand and I will in this case I will most likely reload while moving.)

[PacMan]

Most of what we shoot tends to be targets of opportunity on the move rather than static boxes/locations so I had to learn topping off the tube on the move. In most cases, it's loading on the move and 4 at a time from the shell carriers with my weak hand.

[GordonB]

In your practice sessions, have you done moving vs. not moving drills while reloading four rounds? Did you find that moving and loading the four rounds was timewise faster than staying still, reloading, and then moving?

Whenever I get the chance I'm going out the range and testing the my moving vs. not moving shot to shot times. But I want to get your guys' experience and results to verify or solidify what I experience in the future practice session.

As far as I can see:

Moving:

- More likely to fumble/miss the reloads. Requires more dexterity since the shell port is

moving.

- You are more likely to stumble or even dq.

(EXAMPLE: While you are moving, your attention is on the reload and you may not see

that rock, stick, or prop while you are moving. If you hit the object you may trip,

mess up your grip on the gun and change the muzzle direction (breaking the 180),

fall flat on your ____ , etc. Reloading while moving the SG vs. the pistol is very

different in terms of the attention required.)

+ Movement wise it is faster (i.e. you are using the time moving instead of standing

and going nowhere)

Not moving:

+ The reload will be more sure and you will be less likely to fumble.

- Movement wise it is slower (you aren't using that "down time" to move to your next position)

+ In some cases, at a given distance, you can prep for the next box or port more smoothly.

(EXAMPLE: Say the distance to your next area is 10'. If you reload and then move,

you have that 10' to prep your shot and position. If you reload on the move, you won't have

that 10'. It's probably fine if you have to only reload 1-2 rounds since I would think you can

execute that move while moving about two to three steps and you would have space (say 3')

to prep for your shot and position (but still not as good as if you had the full 10'). But if

you have to do more than the X rounds, if you move you will probably be at the box and

still reloading. In that case, you can't pop off a shot as you are enterting the area like

you could if you had remained static and reloaded.)

What do you guys think of my reasoning and what are your experiences?

[ErikW]

I reload while walking slowly (low gun loaded strong hand from belt stacks). I may never run on a shotgun course.

Just like pistol shooting, you want to avoid the flat-footed standing reloads.

[Neil Beverley]

I would argue that there may be some occasions where it can be better to load from a static position but mostly I would advise to load while moving.

I try to plan to find a minimum number of shooting positions to shoot the targets. On a long (field) course the fewer the number of shooting positions the longer the distances between the positions and these longer gaps can be exploited for loading. I personally don't favour a lot of shooting on the move unless I've got enough shells in the gun for all the targets to be shot.

If you lower the gun to load (as I do) then plan to arrive at your next shooting with the loading complete AND the gun mounted in the shoulder and ready to fire. I see many people load on the move but their timing is wrong and they are static and in sight of shootable targets but are still bringing the gun up. It surprises some just how much ground can be travelled while you complete this final action.

I would advise that you should plan how many rounds you want to, or need to, load between shooting positions and then move at a speed appropriate to the distance to be travelled, the rounds to be loaded and with the intention of arriving with the gun in the shoulder ready to shoot. As Eric as already stated this will often be a walking pace, sometimes quite slow, sometimes brusque, sometime a run is correct. As I've already said above let the other factors dictate how fast you move and you can virtually travel for free, time wise.

Finally I would say that if you're only planning to load 1 or 2 rounds, or perhaps sometimes 3, then this can be time inefficient because there is a time cost everytime you take the gun out of the shoulder and this is better spread over a larger number of rounds being loaded rather than just 1 or 2.

[kurtm]

Gordo:

It is ALWAYS faster to load while moving!!!!! Since Pacman and I load weak handed most of your thoughts don't apply. While moving I can see everything around me, especialy the ground I am traversing. Since all I have to see is just the very edge of the laoding port in my periferal vision, it becomes a non issue. More to the point of your post, we have tried the static thing, load like crazy and then run like crazy, it has always been slower than say the "slow walk" Eric aludes to ( even though with weak hand loading that slow walk is more like a quick smooth run). Static loading IS NOT the way to go!!!

Neil, since the gun is always at the shoulder, with the weak hand technique, it is quite a simple matter to top up 1s and 2s or even 4s with out the time penalty being nearly as bad due to the fact that even as you are reaching for more shells you can still be engaging targets. KURT

[Neil Beverley]

Kurt,

I'm looking forward to meeting you in Italy and I'm particularly interested to watch you shoot.

I was always regarded as being pretty quick when reloading, about 0.6 - 0.7 seconds per round, but there is a definite downside in that my technique means that I drop the gun to belt level, hence my comments.

I agree with your comments about being able to monitor what's going on through periferal vision. Even with the gun at belt level I can keep an eye on where I'm at.

[Ironman]

I am new to the 3 gun but I too load weak hand while on the move. At first I tended to rush to the next station and had to complete my loading there... I will be working on moving to the next stage a little slower and try to complete my reload on the "slower" move.

Jim

[mike45]

I agree that movement whilst loading is everything. There are occassions that dictate loading static, but standing still and then sprinting always seems slower.

Something I have always wanted peoples views on is 'automatic topping up'. In a stage that requires an unloaded start, a loaded start where you are going to have to load more, or in a field stage of 'X' number of rounds, would most people load an extra round in the flow of loading in case of a miss. I always have this discussion with my mates before a stage and ask 'how many are you going to put in?'. Most like me put in an extra round which costs about .8 - 1 second to load but saves 2 seconds having to top up on a miss on the last plate.

I have thought, and am going to start slowing down the shooting and making sure the shots count then I hopefully wouldn't need the top up (thanks for the advice Kurt) but taking the extra 0.2 second on shooting the plate would amount to putting the extra round in.

I dont think I am at the stage where I trust myself wthout the extra round to fall back on, but am interested in what other shooters do and why.

[Neil Beverley]

Mike,

Generally I would recommend having at least one round spare in the gun at all times through a stage but then run the gun dry on the last target. However, occasionally there can be some sense in having a spare round left at the end of a stage.

[kurtm]

Mike45:

I try to load only what I need to finish the course. If I have a miss I just add one more ...or what ever...to make up for it at the next oportunity to load. I see what you are saying about the top up of one extra round, slowing down .2 per plate ( although truth be known it may feel like .2 but it usually is .1, it just feels slower) on a 6 plate rack would equate to loading that spare....EXCEPT. It takes a few 10ths just to reallize you had a miss, it takes a few 10ths more to reindex the gun to the target and pull the trigger, not to mention the few 10ths you spend staring incredulously at your bad luck as to having left one up! Now add to this the frantic fumble factor that your mind tells you to be EXTRA fast to take care of this plate you left up, as you are now behind. I have seen guys miss their make up shot at least 30% of the time. So lets add it up .2 slower for the plate rack per plate= 1.2 seconds. To load an extra, 1.0 second, to realize the miss ( we will be nice here) .2 seconds, to reindex the gun and shoot ( usualy the 2nd or 3rd plate you shot at the first tiime) .3 seconds.....and now a miss? At the very best, you will still be .3 seconds slower than if you slowed down in the first place; and usually when you slow down it only feels slow MENTALLY in actual shooting time there won,t be much difference.KURT

[Mickster]

Regarding the spare round in the gun or what I call the insurance round, I let the stage determine if I take the time to load the insurance round. If the last shot is a difficult target greater than 18 yards or a weak shoulder shot, I'll do it cause I just don't trust myself to take the time to guarantee the hit.

It takes 2-3 seconds to miss the last shot, look and realize you missed it, chuck in another round, close the bolt, aim and fire. It takes less than 1 to chuck in an insurance round earlier in the stage. That's the beauty of shotgun shooting, you make the call.

Last nite we set up a shoot em as you see em stage with steel and clays. One of us decided to shoot the four steel, run like crazy (about 20 yards) to a spot where you could see most of all the targets, load 4, shoot 9 targets and run the gun dry, load 3 more and finish up. The best 2 out of 3 runs were around 27 seconds each.

Another one of us shot em all while moving moderately and loading 1, 2, or 3 as needed. Best 2 out of 3 runs were around 23 seconds each. Both shooters can stand and shoot about the same.

Just from my limited experience, loading while moving moderately seems faster than hauling butt and standing to load.

[GordonB]

Last nite we set up a shoot em as you see em stage with steel and clays. One of us decided to shoot the four steel, run like crazy (about 20 yards) to a spot where you could see most of all the targets, load 4, shoot 9 targets and run the gun dry, load 3 more and finish up. The best 2 out of 3 runs were around 27 seconds each.

Mickster,

That's not quite the technique I was describing or what I meant to describe.

In this scenario, he should have shot the four steel and then:

i. Static reloading V1 (my version )

1) dismount the SG and reload

2) run like hell

3) slow down

4) prep the gun (shoulder the SG in a firing position and look for the first target)

5) arrive at the shooting/box area prepped for the shot

6) shoot the targets.

Instead he (if I am interpreting his run correctly):

ii. Static reloading V2

1) dismounted the SG and ran like hell

2) arrived at the shooting area/box and came to a complete stop

3) reloaded

4) mounted the gun while in the shooting area

5) shot the targets

The winning runs in this case:

iii. Reloading on the move

(while walking/moving)

1) dismount the SG and reload

2) prep the gun (if he executed the reload quick enough, otherwise the shooter would have to do it in 3a)

3) arrived at the shooting area

....3a) and prep the gun (if he didn't execute the reload quick enough)

4) shoot the targets.

My main argument (and what I am trying to find out if it is true or not) for technique i. (static reloading) vs. iii. (reloading while moving) is that i. theoritically:

1) Allows you to better prepare (for a given distance) for the shot.

(In this scenario, if the shooter had executed all of the reloads and had room to prepare for the shots, technique i.'s theoritical advantage 1. is negated. Hence my qualification "for a given distance.")

2) Less fumbles.

3) Potentially safer.

Technique ii. should not be used at all since it eliminates "advantage" #1.

This is good confimation that at least in this case iii. is better than ii.

Anybody have any examples or experiences with a comparison between i. and iii. ?

[kurtm]

Gordon:

Go back and read my first post on this subject, I am sure the "load like crazy.....run like crazy" would qualify for your type i. I would like to reiterate at this point..... ALWAYS SLOWER!!!

For the rest of you sports fans, we finally got some good footage of the weak hand loading technique today, the 31st. It will be posted on The Rocky Mountain 3-Gun web site for all to see. The one segment of the shooter starting aimed in and shooting a shot at the buzzer then reloading 4 and shooting a stop shot timed out at 3.31 seconds. One other segment shows port arms, shoot one load 3 and shoot one in 2 .6 something and the other segment is a port arms start and loading 4 in the late 3s or early 4s I can't remember.KURT

[GordonB]

Go back and read my first post on this subject, I am sure the "load like crazy.....run like crazy" would qualify for your type i. I would like to reiterate at this point..... ALWAYS SLOWER!!!

Did you guys run drills with a timer while varying the distance to be traversed and the # of rounds to reload to confirm this?

[PacMan]

Kurt forgot to post the link to Rocky Mountain 3-Gun Association:

http://home.attbi.com/~gunslinger13/rm3ga.html

The video is not up yet this morning, but Jimmy tends to sleep in

I've not personally timed the "load/run" versus "loading shuffle" at the range, but have done that at home in the basement, and 9 out of 10, I've always been faster with loading 6 on the move covering about 30 feet distance. My though on this subject is that the distances between shooting positions for shotgun stages are always too short to count on running speed. I can do very well in long rifle stages where we'd to cover 30 to 40 yds between positions (without running out of O2), but that advantage diminishes with shorter distance.

[kurtm]

Gordon:

Yes, we run a timer on everything! Even if the move is only 4 feet it is faster to move while , in this case, tring to load, because even for that scant 4 feet you have reached for your shells and at least got the 3-4 you are going to load, up to the port and probable 1 in! Even if you "dismount" your shotgun ( wouldn't that hurt to ride one? ), the second that takes, is "free" because you are now on the way to your next port..or whatever.......but if you feel this is not for you only do what you are comfortable with. If the static load and run works for you, do it. Shotgun shooting is really a "loading" match, and so far the only thing Iv'e for sure figured out is that there are ALOT of ways to load a shotgun. KURT

[ErikW]

This topic drifted from reloading to something more general, so I spun it off to here...

http://64.62.172.100/~brianeno/index.php?a...t=ST&f=2&t=6332