Quality Brass = Functional Gun

[sinnsyk]

I've posted this before and I cannot repeat it enough. Quality Brass = Functional Gun.

The Tanfoglio Magazines have shown me and all Tanfoglio / EAA owners who put a fair amount of rounds downrange that a straight case works better than a cone or bellied case. I've had the luxury of shooting free factory brass for a very long time and to some extent disregard the cost of brass. I remember the slogan "I love my Colt" portrayed by Sharon [insert current last name] and Jerry Barnhart many years ago. I think it was a great slogan and I have to say honestly that I've always loved my Tanfoglio pistols. If I didn't I'd be shooting something else. I've had chances to switch, but there's something about the way they feel and shoot that ... "I'm flattered, but no thanks" has been my answer. Being sponsored by any company is a pretty cool thing and very understandable that someone jumps on an H&K deal if they can. Personally I couldn't every do that cause I think they suck, but if that's your cup of tea, by all means.

Bottom line is that I (and many with me) love our Tanfoglio pistols. The one thing that it comes down to for us practical shooters is that brass has to be as straight as possible in these large frame pistols. It's just a fact and if I could change it I would. I've been a friend of Beven Grams for a long time and he's as far as I care, the magazine Guru above any else. His entire company is based on magazine tuning and providing quality springs, followers and complete magazines for STI / SVI magazines. In 2004 when I went back to playing Limited 40 I asked Beven to modify my magazines. He said... they are basically flawed...they are too narrow. He is right, they should be wider. Well, to modify the gun frame is a major ordeal so changing the magazine body and internal parts is not an option. I asked the factory and they weren't crazy about the idea. After all they sell most of their guns to the average "off the streets" guy and though IPSC is very important to them marketing wise, it's not cost efficient to them to change their design. So, what could be done. Beven and I over a few years eventually came to an improved follower design and today we have a factory magazine body with a Grams follower made especially for the Tanfoglio magazines that work very well. It expanded the capacity for both 38 Super and 40 S&W. The commonality for both caliber was that the cases needed to be straight to work optimally. If you can afford new cases, by all means to do so, at least for major competitions such as the US Nationals, IPSC World Shoot, IPSC Europeans, National Championships and US area matches. I do and because brass has always been free.. even at local matches. I understand this is a luxury and is not reality. Brass and Copper prices have been going up and it's becoming expensive to shoot, for all of us.

I've introduced, marketed and sold EGW Undersized Dies. These cases are re-sizing brass in 9mm, 38 Super, 40 S&W and 45 ACP down to a smaller diameter which, when adjusted correctly, can re-size your brass to factory spec or less. This helps making the cases straighter. Straighter = Improved functionality.

Most of us reload on a Dillon press. I have a 1050, an old one which is awesome. It allows me one extra location which if I want, can double-size my brass. This means I can use the Dillon (crappy, but great for punching out the spent primer) one the typical re-sizing die location and put my EGW U-Die in my second location. This helps sizing the die down. Even with the 1050 and the U-Die it's hard to get all of that fat belly completely removed. We (I mean friends of mine and myself) tried to cut a portion of the dies down, Dillons and EGW dies to allow re-sizing lower. It's almost an impossible task and it seems to be just that little extra spot that stays un-sized.

I can tell you, that extra 0.020" or whatever it is that remains unsized is IMPORTANT. It allows the case to, if you lay it down on a straight surface, to become a cone shape. It will... allow 20 cases in a magazine to form a banana shape. It will cause a dip that can produce a nose-dive. This is why the USPSA competition created the 38 Super Rimless case many years ago (besides the fact that the rim could catch each other and cause other problems.)

(This is also a part of the problem with 9mm in the large frame magazines. Besides the fact that the round, if loaded factory short, has a big jump to the feed ramp.)

So.. back to the main point of this post... Todd Jarrett realized this a long time ago and created a 38 TJ case. Initially made and sold by Hornady. I don't know, maybe you got it, but most of us never really was explained why or understood the importance of this case. It really was this simple.. it allowed the case to be sized all the way down or at least lower (it's still up to the reloader to adjust his/hers dies to remove the belly all the way).

I've been talking to Starline for quite a while now and we're developing a new case that'll allow the 40 case to be re-sized lower just like or maybe slightly better than the 38TJ case. For all of you that shoot 38 Super... all I can say... invest in 38 TJ brass over 38 supercomp / rimless cases. Being able to re-size cases back to a straight case is vital for functionality. (One step at a time.. and I'm trying to share both the knowledge and the pain.)

I decided to add 38 TJ brass to my shop and I'm shipping them 2000 cases for $278 including shipping. This is cheaper than getting them from Starline directly and it will help you making your Tanfoglio / EAA pistol in Open Class 38 Super more reliable.

Remember to adjust the extractor, read article:

Adjust extractor for 38 Super Rimless

38 TJ Brass Available in my Shop:

Get Starline 38 TJ Brass

[UW Mitch]

Great article. When can we expect some 40HW? With my Limited, it's night and day using a U-die versus not. I'm just using range brass, so without the U-die nosedives with only 12-15 rounds in the mag. With the U-die, 20-21 rounds no problem! I measured my loaded ammo at the mouth and base - without the U-die it was 0.002" difference in diameter. After 20 rounds the tolerance stackup (mechanical engr friend gave me that one) I was having the top round dip down by 0.040" - which is the difference between a gun that runs, and a lot of fun with malfunction drills. USPSA Open and Limited really push the envelope - you gotta have EVERYTHING dialed in right to run. Good brass makes good ammo makes for a good day of shooting.

~Mitch

Edited March 14, 2008 by UW Mitch

[sinnsyk]

Thanks Mitch for picthin' in..

I'll be super-happy to have the new 40HW brass launched. The idea is to have a case that none of us have to worry about whether it's new or used. If you can size it using a U-Die it's rock'n roll time. That's what I'm looking for.

[Neomet]

Wow, great post Henning! I really like knowing why one thing is better than another. Also a big thanks for carrying the TJ brass at such a great price. Once the open blaster arrives and I shoot my first 2K you can bet I'll be ordering my next lot of brass from you.

Oh, and you are prohibitited from ever switching to another platform. Ha!!

[ks-shooter]

Sounds reasonable to me! I think I need a Henning Shop charge account...new grips, some new 141 base pads, new brass, Barry mount, front sight and soon...the new magwell. Maybe it is good that the V12 is hard to get.

I truly think it is great that you are getting these pistols more USPSA competitive into the more into the US competition mainstream. Oh yeah, I forgot that I also want the extended mag release as pictured here!!!

[HSMITH]

Henning, how about using a CasePro for the last little bit at the bottom that the dies won't take out?

[ks-shooter]

I am sure the Casepro works very well but for those of us with limited space (and funds) to place a $600 machine; I think the 38TJ makes sense. Plus I do not have an additional step of resizing before I put it in my 650 press. 38TJ costs less than 38SC so as long as the brass holds up over time, I think I will have to jump on the TJ band wagon and give it a try. I do not have the problem with 40 I assume because I do use an U die and cannot load past 21 rounds.

[sinnsyk]

CasePro's are definitely cool.

[sinnsyk]

I am trying to have a magrelease made that is already drilled and tapped for a button. For 1911 there are a myriad of extended buttons available so if we had a 420 Stainless magrelease ready for a button it would be an easy tings. Most shooters won't spend the time to do what you did or what I do to mine. It's not hard, just takes a little more effort than swapping out a part on your own. I can't shoot my guns without an extended button of some sort.

[ks-shooter]

I am trying to have a magrelease made that is already drilled and tapped for a button. For 1911 there are a myriad of extended buttons available so if we had a 420 Stainless magrelease ready for a button it would be an easy tings. Most shooters won't spend the time to do what you did or what I do to mine. It's not hard, just takes a little more effort than swapping out a part on your own. I can't shoot my guns without an extended button of some sort.

Excellent! I agree there are numerous buttons as long as you can have a mag release that is drilled and tapped.

I cannot take credit for the mag release in the picture....I do not remember where I got the picture, but I wish it was mine because it would be perfect for me.

I will need to increase my credit limit on my HenningMart credit card

[jmark308]

Great article! Reinforced the fact that we need to be extreemly particular in our reloading procedeures. I am using a Dillon 550 with a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die in the last station. Shouldn't that take care of the problem? Would it be overkill to use the EWG resizing die in the first station and the Lee in the last?

[TMFAKBFS]

I am trying to have a magrelease made that is already drilled and tapped for a button. For 1911 there are a myriad of extended buttons available so if we had a 420 Stainless magrelease ready for a button it would be an easy tings. Most shooters won't spend the time to do what you did or what I do to mine. It's not hard, just takes a little more effort than swapping out a part on your own. I can't shoot my guns without an extended button of some sort.

Excellent! I agree there are numerous buttons as long as you can have a mag release that is drilled and tapped.

I cannot take credit for the mag release in the picture....I do not remember where I got the picture, but I wish it was mine because it would be perfect for me.

I will need to increase my credit limit on my HenningMart credit card

That's mine Just took my Gun to a smith here and told him that i wanted an extended magrelease. He drilled my original and placed the one pictured on top of it. Excellent job and i really like it. Only downfall is that I live in The Netherlands, so it's a long drive for you Probably your local smith can do the same. It's not rocketscience

Now back on topic, cause this is about Hennings new brass

Edited March 14, 2008 by TMFAKBFS

[ks-shooter]

That's mine Just took my Gun to a smith here and told him that i wanted an extended magrelease. He drilled my original and placed the one pictured on top of it. Excellent job and i really like it. Only downfall is that I live in The Netherlands, so it's a long drive for you Probably your local smith can do the same. It's not rocketscience

Now back on topic, cause this is about Hennings new brass

A long drive and a wet one! I don't have a "local smith", but you are right, it is not rocket science. Thanks and sorry for drifting the thread...I'm done!

[Coolduckboy]

Will it be tapped for the WC Oversized mag release?

[Jeff686]

Henning,

How much impact does the shallow groove taper of the TJ brass have on fixing nosedives? I understand that the height of the taper lets you resize more of the case, but I'm wondering if that's not the only improvement. I think the nosedives occur when the rim of the top round catches on the groove of the next round. If the taper is less aggressive, the top round's rim can more easily climb out of the next round's groove.

Thoughts?

Edited March 8, 2009 by Jeff686

[Jeff686]

To add to my previous question:

I finally found a couple TJ cases to inspect. I now have starline supercomp, starline TJ, and Armscor RL brass. I have not measured them yet, but I did do a 'slide test'.

Slide Test: put two loaded cartridges on top of each other, as they would stack in the magazine. Slide them to simulate the stripping of the top round. Visually inspect and also feel how much interference there is between the rim of the top round and the groove neck of the bottom round.

Here's what I found:

The Starline Supercomp cases have the MOST interference between the rim and the groove neck. This implies that the rim is significantly larger than the case body diameter.

The Armscor RL cases have some interference. It is obvious that it is considerably less than the starline, and the force required to slide the rim past the groove is a lot less.

The Starline TJ case have NO interference!! The rim seems to be the same diameter as the case body. The rim does not catch in the groove at all. There is not noticable force necessary to slide the rim past the groove.

My conclusion:

My Gold Team ran perfectly with Armscor brass. When I was running low, I couldn't get armscor, so I bought starline supercomp. Even after new mag springs, adjusting the feed lips, and case-pro roll sizing I still have nose dives with the big-stick (top few rounds).

TJ is the way to go, because: full length resizing is easier, rim is smaller, and groove taper is more shallow.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Jeff686

[Mo Hepworth]

not sure how much wear it is capable of,.but would you recommend replacing the extractor pin as well,..mine seems a little worn and goes in too easily.

[snaps]

i cant agree more, my guns love to chew up under sized brass. especially good quality brass and even glock 9mm brass.(keep in mind i clean my guns when they are dirty, which is once every 2 months) the trick is to know the history of your brass after 6 times at the range i toss my brass. Ive got a "bad brass package" which is stuff ive collected, and has been used 20+ times and it still shoots fine. Just resize it oh and visually inspect it, tanfogs dont have any problems, its always down to ammo