Clays International for 40 S&W

[dB]

I'm new to IPSC, have a Limcat 40 on order, just got my Dillon, was told Clays International was a good choice for powder by a very respectible shooter.

This is with 180gr lead cast FP.

I ordered 16 pounds from powdervalley.

I'm new to loading for pistol and 40SW "bad juju" combination I saw in one post response.

Today I read Jeff Maass's Loads List which has the warning "you are urged to avoid any load using Hodgdon CLAYS for IPSC-velocity .40S&W loads."  same for AA#2.

1) What do I do now?    Try to sell it at my gun club?

2) Searching the archives I find mention of "Clays" without a qualifier of if it is Universal, or not.  I'll assume they aren't talking about International.

3) Hodgdon's burn rate chart puts Int'l faster than Universal.   wonderful, and faster than AA#2.

4) Hodgdon has nothing for International and 40S&W.

I think I better not load this stuff.

thanks

[dB]

I think I figured it out, if someone can confirm.

On the Hodgdon Burn Rate Chart it goes

3. TITEWAD

5. Hodgdon Clays

8 TiteGroup

12 Hodgdon (Clays) International

16 AA #2

21 Hodgdon (Clays) Universal

Jeff Maass's warning is about the 5th fastest "Clays", not all "Clays"???

I went to the range and alot of them are using Hodgdon International, one said he does

  180 gr, OAL 1.2, 4.6 - 4.8 g for Jacketed rounds

for cast lead, .5 less.

sorry for the trouble.

[Steve Anderson]

This is Brian's reply to the same question from someone else on Matt Burkett's forum:

GhostDog            

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Danc,

Danc,

I spoke with Ron Reiber from Hodgon on your question a couple years ago. His advice was - Do not use International Clays in any handgun application! The powder was never intended for use in a pistol - it is only a shotgun powder. In testing, in a pistol, occasionally it  produced unusually EXTREME pressure spikes - much higher than the nominally high pressure of regular Clays.

Now I know quite a few guys use it - but that was enough for me.

be

Hope that helps,

SA

[eric nielsen]

About 1997 I tried International clays in the short 1.125 length 40. BAD BAD BAD. That stuff (at 3 different charge weights) was the most awful, non-linear powder I've ever used for anything. Going up 10% in charge might have given 2% more velocity. Pressure?? Too scary to imagine.

[DougCarden]

dB, To surmise what I have learned on the list from Knowledgable shooters over the last year or so....

International Clays in .40 loaded to any length, Bad! Brian had some tested for pressure and it was I believe scary.

Regular CLAYS loaded to longer than normal length, in 1911 format around 1.200 or longer, seems to work fine. Guys that shoot much more than I do have put thousands of these loads down range. I have used Clays with lead 180s loaded to 1.200 and small pistol primers with no ill effects and like the load. I worked it up in my gun and with a chrono.

For jacketed bullets I use VV-320 however. In regular length .40 loads 1.135 or so loads CLAYS is a good minor powder, but it spikes weird quickly.

See if you can swap the powder for regular CLAYS and load the ammo to 1.200 or longer. Ask Johnny which OAL he recommends and he will lengthen the lead in the bbl for the longer bullet OAL. Johnny probably has some pet loads he will give you as well.

Hope some of this helps, Doug

[Jon Merricks]

I think I read in Front Sight a while back that Frank Garcia was using International Clays for match loads and tight group for practice. I dont think I.C. is as fast as n320. You could try and email Frank you can find it here http://www.frankgarciausa.com/ . For a newbie I would recomend using something a little safer to start with, tight group would not be a bad choice.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I had a kB! with a Colt Delta, interpolating that powder. A customer was using it, and had problems (blew a case on his S&W 1026) and wanted my input. I tried it, blew a case, and although the gun and mag were fine, I learned my lesson. If the powder maker says "no," then no it is.

[ErikW]

International Clays is not a pistol powder. There's no pistol loading data for it. The manufacturer says don't try it.

Return it to the dealer for exchange or try to sell it to a shotgun reloader.

[benos]

Thanks for the great replies guys. And especially to Steve for finding that post!

But Patrick - "interpolating that powder." Comon. Like you said in an email, your vocabulary is far to vast for a shooting forum.

[Flexmoney]

Jon,

You mentioned that I.C. isn't as fast as VV320.

Just for everybody that might read this...I wanted to caution that burn-rate and pressue do NOT always go hand-in-hand.

Perhaps Patrick could throw some wisdom in on that topic?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Burn rate is a rough measure, of the rate of burn of a powder, under a certain set of conditions called "Standard." It is only for the makers to keep track of their design progress, and for reloaders to drive themselves crazy.

The problem comes when the burn conditions are not the Standard. That is, higher or lower pressure, rate of pressure release, etc.

A linear powder burns with more pressure in a direct relation to how much powder is present. The higher the pressure, the more complete the combustion, and the higher the pressure. Ditto temperature. Up the temp, up the burn rate, up the pressure. Manufacturers use additives to damp down the temperature response.

A non-linear powder does not react in a one-to-one ratio to more powder. You may add 5% powder and get 1% velocity increase. Or you might get 15% velocity and pressure increase.

Most powders have a certain "docile zone" in which they will react in a linear fashion. Go outside of that zone and you get non-lineal responses. Some have a "docile zone" that is a single set of loading data. One example is WW-296, which we are admonished to load to full power, not less than 5% or 10% (I can't remember which) less. Yet other powders, at the same "burn rate" on the charts, do not have such an admonition.

Do not assume a powder maker leaves out load data for your cartridge because they are lazy, or had a short R&D budget that year. There is a good reason. Tread carefully, if at all.

Above, "rate of pressure release" is what loading manuals call the expansion ratio. Load a powder into a 12 ga hull, and when it expands on combustion, it gets lots of room real fast. The same amount, in a .30-06 case, is not faced with the same expansion ratio, and may get really crabby about its treatment.

[Jon Merricks]

Jon,

You mentioned that I.C. isn't as fast as VV320.

Just for everybody that might read this...I wanted to caution that burn-rate and pressue do NOT always go hand-in-hand.

Perhaps Patrick could throw some wisdom in on that topic?

I guess I should have been a little clearer. db was making a reference to how fast some of the powders where. n320 can be loaded safe and it is faster than IC. So like you said "burn-rate and pressure do NOT always go hand-in-hand." Sorry about any confusion.

[gm iprod]

Hodgdon Intl. Clays is made by ADI in Australia. It is a much bulkier powder than most, designed o fill the hull of a shotgun cartridge. It is available in Australia and New Zealand as AS-50, quite easy got cheap and is not reccommended for any pistol application. It has a pistol equivalent that is called AP-50. This is cut much smaller and is a slightly darker colour. The local experts claim it has a retardant added to make it safer for handguns. Less pressure spikes. My experience is that this would be right.

I have seen terrible things happen to small pistol cases when either IC or AS50 find their way into handguns. It has been the cause of a few KBlams in old revolvers, with thin cylinder walls.

Universal Clays is very similar to Unique and Hodgdon give load data in their manual for 40S&W with it.