A2 Stage 6 question

[tgibson]

Here is a question for all of you "gaming/rules" experts. I say that because to be a good gamer, you have to know the rules! Here is a link to the vid of me shooting stage 6.

According the the written stage description, I think I was alright. Here it is as near as I can remember:

"On start, with weak hand, remove baby from carriage and engage T1-T3. Before engaging targets T?-T? deposit baby on table."

What do you think? Thanks for all of your comments and advice .

TG

[ChuckS]

Here is a question for all of you "gaming/rules" experts. I say that because to be a good gamer, you have to know the rules! Here is a link to the vid of me shooting stage 6.

According the the written stage description, I think I was alright. Here it is as near as I can remember:

"On start, with weak hand, remove baby from carriage and engage T1-T3. Before engaging targets T?-T? deposit baby on table."

What do you think? Thanks for all of your comments and advice .

TG

I would say that you complied with your quoted version of the WSB. That said, when we got the stage brief (Sunday 0dark30), we were told we had to "retain" the baby. Well, at least they gave you 1 instead of 6! After watching your video, I wonder if it was really all that much faster than shooting SHO since you were shootiing open? The opportunities for disaster such as fumbling the baby on the ground or sweeping yourself or some other unscheduled foolishness may not of been worth it.

Edited November 17, 2007 by ChuckS

[tgibson]

Here is a question for all of you "gaming/rules" experts. I say that because to be a good gamer, you have to know the rules! Here is a link to the vid of me shooting stage 6.

According the the written stage description, I think I was alright. Here it is as near as I can remember:

"On start, with weak hand, remove baby from carriage and engage T1-T3. Before engaging targets T?-T? deposit baby on table."

What do you think? Thanks for all of your comments and advice .

TG

I would say that you complied with your quoted version of the WSB. That said, when we got the stage brief (Sunday 0dark30), we were told we had to "retain" the baby. Well, at least they gave you 1 instead of 6! After watching your video, I wonder if it was really all that much faster than shooting SHO since you were shootiing open? The opportunities for disaster such as fumbling the baby on the ground or sweeping yourself or some other unscheduled foolishness may not of been worth it.

I am not good enough yet to be worried about "unscheduled foolishness" . In fact, I make sure I have some of that on at least two stages per match!

We were told about retaining the baby also, but at almost all of the other matches I have been to, whatever the RO tells you is sort of a moot (spelling) point. If they wanted us to shoot the COF that way, why didn't they just handwrite it into the course description?

I sort of thought I might get a proceedural for it but hey, if you don't try, you wont know. Thanks for your thoughts.

TG

[G-ManBart]

TG,

You know what I said at the match and I'll repeat it....total BS. You complied with the WSB and the RO just sort of offhand went over the course description to the point of saying "did I miss anything?".

I don't think it was any faster, but it shouldn't have been a procedural. R,

[tgibson]

TG,

You know what I said at the match and I'll repeat it....total BS. You complied with the WSB and the RO just sort of offhand went over the course description to the point of saying "did I miss anything?".

I don't think it was any faster, but it shouldn't have been a procedural. R,

You are probably right about the not being faster after looking at the vid. That is the next set of lessons I need to learn before I can get my M card. Figureing out if my oddball way is actually faster than the way everyone else is doing it! Thanks for the input.

TG

PS By the way, the RO came up to me during the awards and wanted to make sure I wasn't upset with her. I told her heck no. It wasn't her that made it final! I have run into her at a couple of 3 gun matches down there and she is a nice gal.

TG

[xdrocker]

I could see where they were "implying" to retain the baby and make you shot strong hand, but it doesn't specifically state that. That's why, in my opinion, course descriptions and RO's need to be anal in the brief if they want you to do something specific. What REALLY concerned me was the fact that you were out of the RO's sight for 4 seconds. By the time the camera came around the corner you were already done so I couldn't see how the targets were presented, hopefully there wasn't a place to break 180 in the hallway. She could have one helluva surprise coming around that corner if there was and someone did break it!!

[Religious Shooter]

My squad was told by that RO that we had to retain the baby while shooting T1-T3. So yes... by the reading of the procedures that my squad got you deserve the procedural.

I've shot a couple of stages the that RO being the CRO. I got the impression that that particular RO is pretty dang anal.

But hey if the RO said something different and the rest of your squad concurs...

[G-ManBart]

My squad was told by that RO that we had to retain the baby while shooting T1-T3. So yes... by the reading of the procedures that my squad got you deserve the procedural.

I've shot a couple of stages the that RO being the CRO. I got the impression that that particular RO is pretty dang anal.

But hey if the RO said something different and the rest of your squad concurs...

Unless I'm really confused, at a Level III match, the written stage brief is the final word on what is and what is not allowed. So, despite what an RO might say or think, the WSB is final. That's why the rules say the RO has to read the WSB verbatim, rather than go by memory of their interpretation of it....that didn't happen here. Also, it says that the RM can change/modify a WSB, but it makes no mention of an RO deviating from the WSB.

[markm]

He followed the WSB..... no procedural, don't think I'd shot it that way but hey, each his own. I'd turned and instead of throwing the doll on the ground, I'd gone for the table...... Thats what this game is about. If you want a stage de-gamed, ask an open shooter how to do it!

Edited November 17, 2007 by markm

[Religious Shooter]

3.2 Written Stage Briefings:

3.2.1 A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information:

Scoring Method:

Targets (type & number):

Minimum number of rounds:

The handgun ready condition:

Start position:

Time starts: audible or visual signal:

Procedure:

3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad.

3.2.3 The Range Master may modify a written stage briefing at any time for reasons of clarity, consistency or safety (see Section 2.3).

3.2.4 After the written stage briefing has been read to competitors, and questions arising therefrom have been answered, competitors should be permitted to conduct an orderly inspection (“walkthrough”) of the course of fire. The duration of time for the inspection must be stipulated by the Range Officer, and it should be the same for all competitors. If the course of fire includes moving targets or similar items, these should be demonstrated to all competitors for the same duration and frequency.

2.3 Modifications to Course Construction

2.3.1 Match officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.

2.3.2 All competitors must be notified of any such changes as soon as possible. As a minimum, they must be notified by the official in charge of the course of fire during the squad briefing.

2.3.3 If the Range Master approves any such action after the match begins he must either:

2.3.3.1 Allow the course of fire to continue with the modification affecting only those competitors who have not already completed the stage. If a competitor’s actions caused the change, that competitor must be required to reshoot the altered course of fire; or

2.3.3.2 If possible, require all competitors to complete the course of fire as revised with all previous attempts removed from the match scores.

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this or any other Section, when so ordered by a Range

Official, will receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous attempt.

2.3.4 If the Range Master (in consultation with the Match Director) determines that the physical or procedural change results in a loss of competitive equity and it is impossible for all competitors to attempt the revised stage, or if the stage has been rendered unsuitable or unworkable for any reason, that stage and all associated competitor scores must be deleted from the match.

2.3.5 During inclement weather, the Range Master may order that paper targets be fitted with transparent protective covers and/or overhead shelters, and this order is not subject to appeal by competitors (see Rule 6.6.1). Such items must be applied and remain fitted to all affected targets for the same period of time, until the order is rescinded by the Range Master.

Interesting...

Are you sure that the RM didn't modify the stage briefing? The way I read it is that the written briefing posted on the stage is not the definitive procedure if the RM approved a change. If the RM approved a change they don't actually have to change the posted briefing. All they are required to do is to have the shooters "notified by the official in charge of the course of fire during the squad briefing."

[Flexmoney]

If I were grading the match, there are a lot of places that I'd give out A+ scores. The reading of the WSB wasn't one of them.

On this particular stage, before I shot, I went over to the table and got my two very own eyeballs locked onto that WSB and read it for myself.

The exact wording here is very important, and I'm not sure I recall it perfectly. My recollection is that it went something like this:

- At signal retrieve baby with weak hand, then...

- after engaging T1-T3, deposit baby on table

I don't thnk it said anything about how to hold the baby, to hold the baby at all, or what manner (SHO, WH, Freestyle, etc) to shoot while engaging target.

I wouldn't have signed off on a penalty for that one. Once you sign it...you own it.

[boz1911]

At signal retrieve baby with weak hand, then...

- after engaging T1-T3, deposit baby on table

If that was the wording, absolutely no penalty. As far as gaming, good job. WSB's should be concise. Intent means different things to different people.

[Sean Gaines]

you should get a procedural for pulling a Brittany Spears. No, there shouldn't have been a procedural according to the description

[ChuckS]

It looks like 2.3.1 let them change the course and 2.3.2 instructed how to disseminate the change to the competitors. As long as the "retention" was in every squad verbal brief, they met the letter of 2.3.2.

There was a similar thing on Stage 2 last year. On Thursday, one squad shot the stage by engaging T1 & 15 from A and then ran over by T14 and entered the maze there. (The cross-hatched areas were hard top tunnels). It was intended that the shooter would enter the tunnel at A. The match leadership got together and decided that was not proper (This was already discussed some time back so please let's not start it again. 2.3.1 says "for any reason") and had the end around guys reshoot the stage. The fact that the sole entrance to the maze was by A was then included in the verbal stage brief. All within the rules.

Later,

Chuck

[ChuckS]

you should get a procedural for pulling a Brittany Spears. No, there shouldn't have been a procedural according to the description

I don't think so. It is more likely a Michael Jackson...

[G-ManBart]

It looks like 2.3.1 let them change the course and 2.3.2 instructed how to disseminate the change to the competitors. As long as the "retention" was in every squad verbal brief, they met the letter of 2.3.2.

There was a similar thing on Stage 2 last year. On Thursday, one squad shot the stage by engaging T1 & 15 from A and then ran over by T14 and entered the maze there. (The cross-hatched areas were hard top tunnels). It was intended that the shooter would enter the tunnel at A. The match leadership got together and decided that was not proper (This was already discussed some time back so please let's not start it again. 2.3.1 says "for any reason") and had the end around guys reshoot the stage. The fact that the sole entrance to the maze was by A was then included in the verbal stage brief. All within the rules.

Later,

Chuck

Chuck,

I think lawyers would have a field day with this one

After the incident where the RM showed up, they wrote a change on the posted WSB by hand. The way I read it 2.3.2 applies to a change before a course of fire has commenced, so I'm not sure it applies.

Regardless of all the above, I think it's a good lesson on how to avoid problems like this when you're coming up with a WSB at the old home club! I think it's also a good lesson for shooters...don't sign for a procedural you're contesting until the RM makes the call. If I remember correctly, the RM said something like "you signed for it, you get it"....ouch.

[ChuckS]

The way I read it 2.3.2 applies to a change before a course of fire has commenced, so I'm not sure it applies.

I think 2.3.3 covers that.

But, yup, You sign it, you buy it...

[Michael Carlin]

Here is a question for all of you "gaming/rules" experts. I say that because to be a good gamer, you have to know the rules! Here is a link to the vid of me shooting stage 6.

According the the written stage description, I think I was alright. Here it is as near as I can remember:

"On start, with weak hand, remove baby from carriage and engage T1-T3. Before engaging targets T?-T? deposit baby on table."

What do you think? Thanks for all of your comments and advice .

TG

I would say that you complied with your quoted version of the WSB. That said, when we got the stage brief (Sunday 0dark30), we were told we had to "retain" the baby. Well, at least they gave you 1 instead of 6! After watching your video, I wonder if it was really all that much faster than shooting SHO since you were shootiing open? The opportunities for disaster such as fumbling the baby on the ground or sweeping yourself or some other unscheduled foolishness may not of been worth it.

I am not good enough yet to be worried about "unscheduled foolishness" . In fact, I make sure I have some of that on at least two stages per match!

We were told about retaining the baby also, but at almost all of the other matches I have been to, whatever the RO tells you is sort of a moot (spelling) point. If they wanted us to shoot the COF that way, why didn't they just handwrite it into the course description?

I sort of thought I might get a proceedural for it but hey, if you don't try, you wont know. Thanks for your thoughts.

TG

"moot" is spelled and used correctly!

[Flexmoney]

It looks like 2.3.1 let them change the course and 2.3.2 instructed how to disseminate the change to the competitors. As long as the "retention" was in every squad verbal brief, they met the letter of 2.3.2.

I'm calling BS on any type of giving out of vital info in any other form than in the WSB. I've never even heard of that being thought of being done. To do so in an area match would be...

If you are going to give out procedural penalties, then the specific procedure needs to be clearly spelled out in the WSB.

In fact, I know that at least one arb was won at this year's nationals for not getting the right wording in the WSB.

[Flexmoney]

A bit more meat:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply

with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

[tgibson]

"moot" is spelled and used correctly!

Well if nothing else comes out of this, at least I recieved a bit of an education in grammer.

Grammer - the system of rules by which words are formed and put together to make sentences

TG

[oldcurmudgeon]

"moot" is spelled and used correctly!

Well if nothing else comes out of this, at least I recieved a bit of an education in grammer.

Grammer - the system of rules by which words are formed and put together to make sentences

TG

Well, it's actually spelled grammar.

[tgibson]

"moot" is spelled and used correctly!

Well if nothing else comes out of this, at least I recieved a bit of an education in grammer.

Grammer - the system of rules by which words are formed and put together to make sentences

TG

Well, it's actually spelled grammar.

Kant work the spel chek ethr

TG

[ChuckS]

A bit more meat:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply

with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

Hmm, instructions can be passed down in the stage brief but can not be penalized unless they are in the WSB? Congratulations, you may of found the first thing to fix in the 2012 Rule Book!!!

[G-ManBart]

A bit more meat:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply

with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

Hmm, instructions can be passed down in the stage brief but can not be penalized unless they are in the WSB? Congratulations, you may of found the first thing to fix in the 2012 Rule Book!!!

"2.3.1 Match officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.

2.3.2 All competitors must be notified of any such changes as soon as possible. As a minimum, they must be notified by the official in charge of the course of fire during the squad briefing."

If instructions are passed down during the stage brief, it means that the RM has already approved a change to the stage and modified the WSB accordingly. Nowhere does it say that you can modify a COF and just tell the shooters about it during the stage brief. They mention this because the stage information is usually provided in advance of the match and they want to make sure everyone is made aware of that change to the WSB.

It seems pretty simple to me...if the RM approves a change to the COF it means they have to update the WSB and notify the competitors of the change from the information previously supplied (assuming a match where the COF is published in advance).