hhsmiley Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Just received my Witness Limited from Rich at Canyon Creek. WOW, this thing is awesome. I can not wait to get out and shoot it. It's nice and hefty and I imagine that, along with the slide being mounted lower than most pistols' will help lower the recoil a bit. This gun just points more naturally and feels better in my hand than any other gun I've handled. Rich does some work on the guns before he sends them off. The trigger is just right. Not sure about the poundage as I don't have a scale, but I definitely like it. It has an upgraded sear (EGW I think). A little baggy containing the old sear, an extractor and a firing pin was included. I didn't even realize that was part of the package, but it looks like Rich upgraded those parts as well. I was surprised at some of the little extras that came with the gun. The thumb safety is ambidextrous and the "thumb rest" parts are a little smaller than the really wide ones you often see on the Witness competition guns, but I like them. The left side wider paddle safety was also included separately though. There are 2 different weight recoil springs (they're marked in kgs so I'll have to do some math if I need to try them), and a cool little cleaning kit. Anyway, these guns seem to be a great value to get up and running in Limited. For the gun, mags, and gunsmithing, you'd be looking at $2500-3000 to get into an STI and I don't think you'd have a lot more gun. Hopefully it'll run as good as it looks. I will report on that. Pictures will follow soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Congrats! Pics are a must. Just out of curiosity, what are the spring markings? Do they give the spring constant in terms of kg/m or does it just say kg? I could easily convert them if you need help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 (edited) whoops, my first double tap Edited November 16, 2007 by Krautwagen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhsmiley Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 The spring packages say: MOLLA DIS. 54AA KG 5,09 MOLLA DIS. 53AA KG 5,59 Not sure about the weight of the spring that's actually in the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhsmiley Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 wow..very sweet looking gun.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Great score. I just got mine as well and couldn't be happier! ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 The spring packages say:MOLLA DIS. 54AA KG 5,09 MOLLA DIS. 53AA KG 5,59 Not sure about the weight of the spring that's actually in the gun. Hmm, maybe I can't convert them... 5.09 kg/cm = 28.44lb/in (5.09kg * 2.2lb/kg * 2.54 cm/in) 5.59 kg/cm = 31.24lb/in And that math doesn't even account for force (vs mass). Neither of which sound correct. Maybe Rich or the crazy Norwegian can help us out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeoHallak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Usually I just throw out all the springs that come with it and replace them with Wolf. You will love it, its a great gun... get some parts from Henning and you will be good to go.. leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 (edited) I think Henning runs a 10lb Wolff Spring, a friend of mine runs an 11 in his (12 also works) . I also use an 11lb spring in my EAA Open gun. Added: A 5.09kg spring is about 11lbs, 5.59 is about 12lbs, Edited November 16, 2007 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 A 5.09kg spring is about 11lbs, 5.59 is about 12lbs, Hmmm .... I'm not really sure it is ... Let's see: since spring elastic constant is force divided lenght (F = k*x , thus k = F/x), in metric units it is normally expressed in Kgf (force, not mass) / m. I assume the equivalent in imperial units of measure shall be Lbf / ft. Now 1 Kgf = 2.2 Lbf, and 1 m = 3.28 ft. Thus Kgf/m = 3.28/2.2 Lbf/ft = 1.491 Lbf/ft A 5.09 Kgf spring should then be a 7.6 Lbf/ft one, and a 5.59 Kgf spring should be a 8.33 Lbf/ft one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Your confusion on spring weights may be like mine when I first got into this. In engineering and physics classes we learned about "spring constants" which express a force per unit length. So what's a "10lbs spring"? Is it 10lbs/inch? No, the gun industry measures springs based on total force (lbs of force) at full compression. So a 10lb spring means 10lbs of force at full compression. I would imagine a similar thing with the Kgf measurement. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I would imagine a similar thing with the Kgf measurement. Correct, it's just a straight Kg to lb conversion. 11lbs and 12lbs respectively. Happiness is being right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAB33 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 The one that came in mine was a 6,46 kg which is around 14lbs I think. You can't replace them so it's best to go with the Wolff springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Well that's just a huge headache... kg = mass mass * acceleration = force kg * m/(s^2) = Newtons kgf = N I thought we were the dumb bastards that used our units for mass and force interchangeably (almost - lb and lbf) - not those metric folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinnsyk Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Paul is right about the spring weights. To convert it's KG * 2.2 = LB. The reason I switched to Wolff springs is so that I know exactly what spring I have in my gun and can duplicate my preferred setup from gun to gun. The factory may vary the spring weight they are using from one year to another based on input from their shooters or who knows what. Okay, so you get a couple of springs with the gun, but accessibility of factory springs isn't necessarily guaranteed whereas Wolff is a no brainer. These are the spring weights I prefer (my easy table): Wolff 12lb for Power Factor 180 > Wolff 10lb for Power Factor 160 - 180 Wolff 8lb for Power Factor 140 - 160 Wolff 6lb for Power Factor < 140 I shot our local steel challenge this year in Limited 40 S&W using 165gr bullets factoring in right under 140PF and the Wolff 6lb spring felt a lot nicer than the 8lb. It's a very light spring so functioning isn't guaranteed with this setup unless you've got the gun broken in and tuned right. Mags and ammo better be 100%. At the US Limited Nationals I tested a 12lb spring with my 175PF loads I ended up shooting at the Europeans. I wanted to test and see if a 12lb might feel better than the 10lb, but it didn't. 10lb still rocks for typical IPSC / USPSA loads. So, needless to repeat, but I put a lot of emphasis on what spring I shoot. It ultimately tunes the recoil and my scale is a result of testing. And final testing only becomes valid after proving it in a competition that's important to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Your confusion on spring weights may be like mine when I first got into this. In engineering and physics classes we learned about "spring constants" which express a force per unit length. So what's a "10lbs spring"? Is it 10lbs/inch? No, the gun industry measures springs based on total force (lbs of force) at full compression. So a 10lb spring means 10lbs of force at full compression. I would imagine a similar thing with the Kgf measurement. Mitch, thanks for clearing things for me. I had erroneously thought that spring constant would have been measured as in physics, didn't know they were using this method, measuring the force needed to fully compress the spring that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrpalma Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Congratulations hhsmiley! You got a great pistol. Did you change the thumb safety lever? It seems like yours is blued, and mine came with the same finish as the rest of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Nice pistol!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Well that's just a huge headache...kg = mass mass * acceleration = force kg * m/(s^2) = Newtons kgf = N I thought we were the dumb bastards that used our units for mass and force interchangeably (almost - lb and lbf) - not those metric folks 1 Kgf = 9.81 N, there's the gravity constant in between ... 1 N = 1 Kg * 1 m /s^2, while 1 Kgf = 1 Kg * g (g being equal to 9,81m/s^2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 You guys must have some wicked gravity over there g=9.803m/s^2 in all my textbooks I was only commenting on the units above, not the actual conversion factors. I have never seen the unit 'kgf' used before - is it common in the metric world? SI units are fairly straightforward, not like our mass measurement (1 slug = 32.2 pounds (mass)) and force units pounds (sometimes called lbf) such that 1 slug * g = 1 lbf... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhsmiley Posted November 20, 2007 Author Share Posted November 20, 2007 (edited) You got a great pistol. Did you change the thumb safety lever? It seems like yours is blued, and mine came with the same finish as the rest of the gun I haven't asked Rich, but I think the gun came with the single sided wider paddle safety. He swapped it for the ambi, and I guess he just happened to have a blue one. I'm going to refinish the safety in gunkote later. Their "stainless" looks more like brushed hard chrome than stainless, just FYI. I got a chance to shoot it this last weekend and I was very impressed. It's easily the most acurate handgun I own. With ammo prices so high I only ran about 150 rounds through it but had no problems. The thing is a machine. Up till now I've been shooting a 1911 .45 in IPSC matches with factory ammo at 190-200 PF. With this heavier gun and ammo at around 175 PF, recoil felt lighter than my 9mm. The gun just points so naturally and the recoil is "snappy" compared to .45 but so much more easily managable than what I've been using, I can tell it's going to immediately make me more competitive. I used about half Winchester 165 gr. (USA40SW) and half Blazer Brass 180 gr loads and it liked both. I couldn't tell much difference in recoil between the two. I'm going to order a fiber optic front sight and new recoil springs from Henning as soon as I'm able. Oh, and I have a question too. I have a CR Speed holster that I intended to use with this gun. Problem is the trigger guard is so sharp, it's shaving a little bit off the plastic piece in the holster that retains the gun with every draw. There's also too much play front to back in that holster, the gun can flop around pretty good if you're moving at all. The directions that came with the holster mention the Witness competition guns specifically as having sharp triggerguards and recommends they be filed down. I think I'd rather alter my $100 holster than my $1000 gun if at all possible, so short of buying a different holster, any ideas? Edited November 20, 2007 by hhsmiley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Glad to hear she's working well for ya Did the gun come with all 4 mags? Before you go F/O front sight, have you tried a white dot? I used some of the lady friend's nail polish and tooth pick to put a small dot on my front and I'm in love... Plus, it's cheap and whatever type of paint it was, is tough as nails... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhsmiley Posted November 21, 2007 Author Share Posted November 21, 2007 Glad to hear she's working well for ya Did the gun come with all 4 mags? Before you go F/O front sight, have you tried a white dot? I used some of the lady friend's nail polish and tooth pick to put a small dot on my front and I'm in love... Plus, it's cheap and whatever type of paint it was, is tough as nails... I'll try that, thanks. Yes the gun came with all 4 mags. 2 - 18 rd and 2 - 21 rd with Gram's followers and springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrpalma Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I got a chance to shoot it this last weekend and I was very impressed. It's easily the most acurate handgun I own. Thanks! What kind of accuracy are you getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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