Why is BJ Penn fighting Joe Stevenson for the LTW title?

[Kimberkid]

Also, Lesnar is a joke. If he ever wins anything it will be a set up. If he ever wins the title, from a real HW fighter, I will personally fellate an entire anger management class of wolverines that were abused as childeren. It aint gonna happen.

[chp5]

Evan Tanner is my all time favorite fighter. NO ONE, without exception, has more heart. If he comes back, he is a real threat to Silva. Tanner is a bigger threat than Franklin was. Tanner and Lindland both have a clinch game better than Franklin and as good as Silva. Hendo is also gonna shake up 185 as soon as he gets a fight. It isnt even dropping wieght for Hendo. He is a natural 185.

Feel free to discuss if you disagree with above stated opinions

I feel ya man - on all but the Tanner stuff. Tanner does have heart, but but he's over the hill and is not near the complete fighter that Silva is. Silva will knock him silly faster than Tito smashed him (20 seconds?).

I like all your other thoughts though

Much respect.

Cy

[Kimberkid]

Thanks Cy,

Maybe i misrepresented myself. I dont think Tanner is a more complete fighter than Silva or Franklin, but he has a clinch game that I think is better than Franklins and maybe as good as Silva. If Tanner comes back with the game he used to have, I would love to see a fight between him and Silva. Silva wont knock him out, though a Ref stoppage is definetly possible. Tanner could also win several ways as well.

[JFD]

I like Tanner, but think that Silva would eat him alive these days. Nothing I'd want to watch.

Evans seems to be coming along quite well. My thinking is that he'll beat Bisping. Matter of fact, damn near anyone who isn't a hack should beat Bisping. I haven't been impressed with him at all. No way will I pay for that PPV.

Can't wait for the Hughes/Serra fight. Serra acts like a gradeschooler, and I think he's scared to death of Hughes. Hughes is talking about only a couple more fights before he retires, so I hope he's fired up for the Serra fight. GSP is probably aching to put a hurting on Serra as well. That last fight was a fluke.

As far as Chuck goes, his style has always left giant holes in his defense. I think he has too much money now to work on closing those holes. Personally I think getting beat by Jardin should finish him for the UFC. Good deal for Jardin, but he'll just get beat in his next fight by some nobody. Seems to be his style.

As far as the Ultimate Fighter goes, I really liked it better when the losers left the house.

[dirtypool40]

Coupla thoughts, just my "newbie" opinions:

Chuck - went from unbeatable to flawed in two fights, one where he got caught early, one where he looked unprepped. He needs to find the fire or retire.

Keith - got caught and HARD against Huston, then looked really solid and mature against Chuck. If he finds consistency, who knows.

Rashad and Bisping both actually lost their last fights. I think Dana only noticed their 30-0 unbeaten record after the last rounds of fights, and realized he had something he could market, albeit kinda hollow. Rashad has fought a couple solid guys, Tito is relagated to "gatekeeper" these days, but Bisping hasn't fought anybosy, and I really though Hammil mopped the floor with him for three rounds.

We NEED Hendo to fight for the 185 belt. I don't even know who would be #1 contender behind him. Drew McFedries seems tough, but I'd have to search the UFC site to even find five 185#'ers I know.

Hughes went though a time where winning was easy, maybe too easy, and they say he used to take prep lightly, and there was no one to really challenge him. I hope he's finding the fire, and I hope a ripped and fired up Hughes shows up against Serra and just squashes him. I think you're right, even Serra knows it was a fluke, and I think he doubts he can fluke Hughes. I think Serra's "sentence" should be Hughes, then ANY top 10 guy, then GSP. 170 is stacked, and right now the best fighter is NOT champion. Hughes, GSP, Fitch, Koz, and Parisian when he is in shape.

I hear a rumor that they are inviting Randy back to defend against Nougeria (sp?). Behind them... who? Tim beat Vera, and that spoiled either of them.

@ 155, I'd like to see Fisher get a shot, but if BJ takes the throne, and can stay in shape, I don't see a challenger out there, Sherk may be able to stay with him, esp if he can weather the storm early, but he hasn't been finishing fights.

Tanner, like Franklin was one of the big hearted, self taught guys that the sport may have passed by. They both fought at 185 and 205. I'd also love to see Tito and Frankling mix it up. I wonder what Franklin's future holds?

anyway.... just some ramblings....

Edited November 15, 2007 by dirtypool40

[Kimberkid]

I just cant see why all the hate for Serra. Hughes beats the shit out of his guys, and i dont mean hard work but abuse, then calls them pussies and losers and wonders why they dont win. They dont win becuz they r getting injured by their "coach".

Serra didnt win on a fluke. End of story. It wasnt a lucky punch. He tried to knock GSP out and succeeded, how is that lucky? also, he didnt hit him once, but several times. Lucky?

Also, It is my opinion that it is a very bad idea to count out a 2 discipline world champ. That means Serra, not Hughes. I dont think Serra has any fear of Hughes. Hughes SHOULD be afraid of Serra at least for the realization that he has a far better gaurd game that anyone Hughes has ever fought. I dont know who will win this one, but anyone who thinks Serra doesnt have a chance is foolish.

[Jake Di Vita]

I totally agree with Kimberkid.

[dirtypool40]

I just cant see why all the hate for Serra. Hughes beats the shit out of his guys, and i dont mean hard work but abuse, then calls them pussies and losers and wonders why they dont win. They dont win becuz they r getting injured by their "coach".

Serra didnt win on a fluke. End of story. It wasnt a lucky punch. He tried to knock GSP out and succeeded, how is that lucky? also, he didnt hit him once, but several times. Lucky?

Also, It is my opinion that it is a very bad idea to count out a 2 discipline world champ. That means Serra, not Hughes. I dont think Serra has any fear of Hughes. Hughes SHOULD be afraid of Serra at least for the realization that he has a far better gaurd game that anyone Hughes has ever fought. I dont know who will win this one, but anyone who thinks Serra doesnt have a chance is foolish.

Serra is solid, but I had never heard he was a BJJ Champ, black belt yes, but not champ. That's news to me, but I am not the expert.

As to the best guard game Hughes has ever faced, I'd have to give that title to BJ.

I am still not sure Hughes is as bad as the editing makes him out to be. Being a Christian, conservative, gun nut, who wrestled in high school, I lean towards cheering for the christian, conservative, gun nut, who was a Div I All American wrestler, and is now sponsored by gun companies. I don't know who will win, but I am rooting for Hughes, and yes rooting a little against Serra.

Good discussion though....

<edited to add, I looked it up, and Serra is in fact an Abu Dabi champ, and BJJ World Champ>

Edited November 18, 2007 by dirtypool40

[Singlestack]

UFC 78 Results. Don't reveal them if you don't wanna know.

-Akihiro Gono def. Tamdan McCrory via Submission (armbar) at 3:19 of Round 2.

-Marcus Aurelio def. Luke Caudillo via TKO (strikes) at 4:29 of Round 1.

-Joe Lauzon def. Jason Reinhardt via Submission (rear naked choke) at 1:14 of Round 1.

-Thiago Alves def. Chris Lytle via TKO (cut stoppage) after 2 Rounds.

-Frank Edgar def. Spencer Fisher via Unanimous Decision (30-27, 30-27, 30-26) after 3 Rounds.

-Ed Herman def. Joe Doerksen via KO (punch) at 0:39 of Round 3.

-Karo Parisyan def. Ryo Chonan via Unanimous Decision (30-27, 30-27, 30-27) after 3 Rounds.

-Thiago Silva def. Houston Alexander via TKO (strikes) at 3:25 of Round 1.

-Rashad Evans def. Michael Bisping via Split Decision (29-28 Evans, 29-28 Bisping, 29-28 Evans) after 3 Rounds.

[spook]

Cool, I'm 8-1 for UFC 78

As for the Serra vs. Hughes thing, I don't follow TUF anymore, but the fight is one that could go either way IMO. I would give the edge to Hughes tho. Hughes has great Jiu-Jitsu skills (look at his beautiful armbar victory over GSP) and will outwrestle Serra. His BJJ skills didn't show against BJ, but that's like having Rob Leatham face any M-class shooter and calling the M-class shooter a loser...

I think GSP made the mistake of trying to stand with Serra to avoid his strong points (BJJ). Hughes will not be afraid to take Serra down and GnP him into oblivion.

[Bruce]

Great fight (supposedly) announced for March 1, 08 UFC: Anderson Silva v. HENDO!

Man I would love to see Dan win this one, but Silva...well, the video shows it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/searc...silva-highlight

[PistolPete]

I thought last nights UFC was not one of the better events. This year has seen some great events but last night was quite boring. I hate wrestlers in the UFC as they are always boring. Very few wrestlers turned MMA fighters are completely well rounded. I know I will get flamed here as the likes of Randy Couture prove me somewhat wrong. However, too many wrestlers play the lay and pray game and just hold people down without being able to finish the fight. I'm not saying that was last nights UFC but I just wish for a bit more excitement. A few of the fights were good don't get me wrong but the lack of action in 1/2 the fights left a lot to be desired.

Pete

[Kimberkid]

Pete, I can see how you could come to that opinion, but give the wrestlers another chance.

Watch any of these fights:

Couture vs. Ortiz

Sherk vs. Florian

Sherk Vs. Hughes

Couture Vs. Van Arsdale

Any Pride fight with Kevin Randleman

all these have awesome exciting wrestling to them

I also had a similiar upbringing to Hughes, but I cant dig on how he disrespects some people. However, I will admit he has some redeeming qualities.

As for best guard game Hughes has faced, I somehow let BJ slip my mind. However, I am not totally convinced BJ's gaurd is better than Serra's. Hopefully time will tell.

[Religious Shooter]

Well Serra has 2 herniated discs in his back. He won't be fighting Hughes on December 29. Kind of disappointing.

Hughes will be fighting GSP... (yawn).

[mjbine]

Well Serra has 2 herniated discs in his back. He won't be fighting Hughes on December 29. Kind of disappointing.

Hughes will be fighting GSP... (yawn).

Too bad for Serra, now I hope Hughes retires after this loss.

[PistolPete]

Honestly I think Hughes is going to get slammed again from GSP. I don't think he stands a chance. GSP is way too well rounded. That being said I feel kind of bad for Serra because I was hoping he would beat Hughes and then fight GSP. If GSP wins it's great for him to be able to fight Serra again and hopefully win. Just too bad Serra couldn't be on top for a bit longer. He really is a great guy.

[dirtypool40]

I hate wrestlers in the UFC as they are always boring. Very few wrestlers turned MMA fighters are completely well rounded.... too many wrestlers play the lay and pray game and just hold people down without being able to finish the fight.

Not flamin' you, you are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Although it ryhmes and is therefore as popular a descriptor as "ground and pound", or "sprawl and brawl" I really think the days of "lay and pray" are gone. At least at the higher levels.

If you list the most exciting fighters out there, and most exciting fights in the past 18 months, the well rounded wrestlers have been in ALMOST every one. 170 is FULL Of them. Karo (judo, ok, but still grappling), Fitch (all around ANIMAL), Koz (no more lay and pray), Sanchez (I don't like him, but he is generally exciting), Hughes, GSP, Penn (BJJ, but still grappling), Sherk, Serra, FLorian, Stevenson, Tyson Griffin, Guida, EdgarRampage, and Chuck.

Chcuck is the epitome of a wrestler who got "well rounded". He's a Div I collegiate wrestler who took his take down defense skills all the way to the top.

Most boring fight I ever paid to see was Silvia Arlovski 3. What a snoozer. Not one shot, trip, knock down........ nothing!!!

Most exciting? Jeez, and two well rounded guys transitioning back and forth from the ground and back up. Almost any 155 fight with good grapplers. Spencer Fischer, Tyson Griffin, Guida, Franky Edgar, etc etc. As the fighters get bigger, esp 185 and up, they are less dynamic on the ground, and can't hold that frantic pace, but I still like the nice mix.

The aspect of things going to the ground, at any time, is what makes it unpredictable and exciting. JMHO.

Edited November 27, 2007 by dirtypool40

[spook]

DP40, I think PistolPete is referring to true "wrestlers" instead of "other grapplers". There's a huge difference between the two.

I too find a lot of wrestlers (like Ortiz for instance) dreadful to watch. Somehow a lot of them fail to finish their opponent and end up dominating them from the top until it's decision time.

Chuck, IMHO is a kickboxer who utilizes his wrestling to prevent takedowns, nothing more. I wouldn't exactly call him well rounded as he hasn't finished anyone on the ground yet.

Grapplers with extensive backgrounds in BJJ or Judo are just awesome to watch. My favourites at the moment are Shinya Aoki and Shaolin Ribeiro. Aoki has no standup, but is just sooo good to watch on the ground.

When I think of "wrestlers" I think of guys like Coleman, Ortiz, Hughes, Kos, Sherk. Some of them are hard workers and GREAT MMA fighters, but I find them boring to watch (unless they get dominated by grapplers like Penn for instance )

There are always the exceptions like Henderson, Randy, Rampage... but then again, both Rampage and Henderson fall into the category "wraslers who dun' wanna wrassle"

Edited November 27, 2007 by spook

[dirtypool40]

I dunno, I MIGHT be a little biased cuz I was a rassler, albeit not a very good one.

I just like seeing rasslers take one dimensional boxers down and hold them there while they pummle them into applesauce. But yes, it can get boring. The "hard worker" types, like Randy and Hughes, who never let up I love to watch and don't see them as lay and pray-ers. I'll walk away from an old lay and pray fight as soon as I'll turn off a "dance contest" like Silvia Arlovski 3.

And Hey, let's not hate on Hughes, Ok, so he's slightly conifdent, and just a big corn fed monster for 170. And I know he's getting older, but if, IF there's a role model on par with Randy it's that guy; not some inner city thug, but a middle American Farm boy, and unapologetically Conservative, Christian and gun nut. Look close at his trunks, they have Hornady, Armalite and I think Marlin on them.

After the VT shootings he got a lot of heat to drop the gun sponsors, and come out "for" gun control. Instead posted on his website a lot of common sense things you and I take for granted, but the MMA public may not have thought of.

He says things in interviews like "If you're undefeated you are not fighting tough enough competition" and "no one ever goes into a fight 100%", and I just respect that kind of competitive spirit.

He doesn't talk trash, or hype things like the WWF. Also one of the best one round comeback fights I ever saw was vs. Trigg 2, takes a knee right in the pills, weathers the storm and chokes him out. Then even stands up and says, "it's ok, Trigg didn't mean it".

I gotta admit, I don't have the knowledge most of you do on MMA, but I am a Hughes fan. (Also Randy)

Edited November 27, 2007 by dirtypool40

[Kimberkid]

Sucks that Serra is out. I was really looking forward to that fight. Hopefully someday it will still happen.

Spook, how can you find Coleman and Sherk boring??? You're my brother man, I cant believe you would do that to me. I do agree with you that Chuck is a kickboxer with good take down defense. I have no idea how successful he really was as a college wrestler, and as for ground skills, no one has ever seen them. I will give him though that he has done jui jitsui with John Lewis for forever, so thats gonna mean something.

DP, i agree that lay and pray is more or less a thing of the past. It still happens, but not like it used to, and not like a lot of people claim. Just because they are on the floor doesnt mean nothing is happening. Thats kinda like saying that Bullseye shooting is easy because it is so slow. Once you understand what is going on, you get a new respect for it. Once you can see which submissions are being set up, before they happen, you will enjoy the ground game a lot more.

[dirtypool40]

Good points KK.

I'm so paranoid of side arm triangles and kimoras I won't even hug relatives anymore!!!

As to Chuck's wrestling; NCAA Division I is as close to REAL pro rasslin' on a large scale as we have in this country. That's where our Olympians and World Champs come from. Just to be on a Div I team means your up there. I'd bet there are more BJJ black belts in the world than Div I rasslers.

I guess Chuck found his heavy hands and figured that's easier. Clearly he doesn't look like his core is developed like most of the current grapplers.

But I love watching the latest crop of wrestlers in MMA with solid well rounded training. 155 is full of them, and 170 has at least 5 or 6. I never was a fan of Sanchez or Koz, but respect them. I've seen the last three or four Fitch fights, and unless they told you he was a wrestler first, you'd have a hard time picking his origins.

Time for a new thread, we are WAY off BJ and Daddy.

[PistolPete]

I can respect and love to watch a great Jiu Jitsu fighter because they are always looking for that submission. However watching a wrestler just looking for ground and pound is lame. They hardly ever improve their position they just try to use brute strength to overpower their opponent. Seeing a highly skilled Jiu Jitsu fighter is awesome. I forget the guys name but he just recently fought Roger Huerta. That guy was great as he was going for submission after submission. He eventually lost to Huerta as Huerta is a more rounded fighter. Then take someone like Karo Paresian and watching his Judo throws. Man is he sick when he starts tossing people around. Even the slams of Randleman and Rampage are just sick.

I wouldn't classify Rampage as a wrestler anymore. He's a true well rounded MMA fighter now. He has great kickboxing and a strong ground game. All he needed was to focus on his training which he is doing and look where he is today. I despise fighters like Sanchez and Coz as they are merely wrestlers. It was great to see Coz lose a wrestling match with GSP.

Pete

[spook]

I'll walk away from an old lay and pray fight as soon as I'll turn off a "dance contest" like Silvia Arlovski 3.

+1

And Hey, let's not hate on Hughes, Ok, so he's slightly conifdent, and just a big corn fed monster for 170. And I know he's getting older, but if, IF there's a role model on par with Randy it's that guy; not some inner city thug, but a middle American Farm boy, and unapologetically Conservative, Christian and gun nut. Look close at his trunks, they have Hornady, Armalite and I think Marlin on them.

I never really hated on Hughes. I think he's one of the greatest champions in MMA history. The guy has fought some epic battles and he is just an insane 170lbs. fighter. I actually give him the edge over GSP in Hughes GSP 3

And ditto on the no trash talking stuff. I can't believe how some guys want to make MMA a mainstream sport (if it's not already) and expect to overcome the greatest hurdle (the un-PC character) by trash talking all the time. The only trash talking I enjoy is Rampage's. He's one funny SOB. The "black on black crime" quote before him vs. Eastman still cracks me up.

Spook, how can you find Coleman and Sherk boring??? You're my brother man, I cant believe you would do that to me.

Dammit! I thought you wasn't readin' when I wrote that down!

Coleman had his moments and so did Sherk, but I still believe that was also because they had a great match up. Plus Coleman and Sherk were some names that came to mind. I could have picked Fujita and Ortiz just as easily (*thinks of a possible Ortiz vs. Fujita and shudders*)

I can respect and love to watch a great Jiu Jitsu fighter because they are always looking for that submission. However watching a wrestler just looking for ground and pound is lame. They hardly ever improve their position they just try to use brute strength to overpower their opponent. Seeing a highly skilled Jiu Jitsu fighter is awesome.

That's basically what I thought you meant. And I agree. There's so much difference between power and technique.

Did you mean Crane (guy who fought Huerta) BTW?

[chp5]

MMA is funny. It can change and turn very quickly.

As pointed out in another response, Chuck was unbeatable - now he looks close to retirement. The "Axe Murderer" fight in December will be interesting still.

Hughes used to bully ALL opponents - now he's an underdog against GSP.

GSP was too well rounded to lose to a guy like Sera - and he got knocked out.

This sport must drive the bookies crazy.