Palm Scoring System 2007

[Hoofy]

It's been a couple of years since any discussion on the PSS. So for those of you that use it:

How reliable are the machines? Are they affected by heat/cold, dust/rain?

How long is the training process?

For local matches, is one per squad + spare enough?

Are all the problems interfacing with EZWin Score fixed?

If it is everything promised, is cost the only reason more don't use it?

[maineshootah]

It's been a couple of years since any discussion on the PSS. So for those of you that use it:

How reliable are the machines? Are they affected by heat/cold, dust/rain?

How long is the training process?

For local matches, is one per squad + spare enough?

Are all the problems interfacing with EZWin Score fixed?

If it is everything promised, is cost the only reason more don't use it?

I used it for the first time when my club was sponsoring a stage at the NE Sectional match.

3 of us were trained for on the software for about 10 minutes and then told... here you go.

If you are comfortable with computers or the plam then you will not have any issues with it.

Even our resident " I can't do anything on a computer" member was comfortable with the software in about 4 hours of use.

We had used palms with the AAA batteries, and they worked fine.

Scores were up and updated almost every 2 hours, with interim scores avaialble online at the same time back at the clubhouse.

That is a great feature, as all the shooters can look up scores by the time they get home.

I have thought about bringing them up to my local club, however, there is the cost issue for the setup and software as well as the front end work that has to be done (loading all of the stages into the software before the match.. etc).

Are all the problems fixed? No idea. I didn't run into any problems that could not be fixed easily throught paying attention to what the directions and prompts tell you what to do.

For a major match, I love it.

[Hoofy]

Sounds like the best option for big matches. Have you thought about using it for local matches, or is the $2 per shooter work

a pain to put up with?

[moverfive]

We are using it and it is a great system. And depending on the number of shooters you typically have and your match schedule, there could be some problems that may require a little 'outside assistance.'

Specifically - match registration for each competitor, to include squadding, must be done within EZWin. And in our case where it is not uncommon to have 70 - 80 competitors, trying to register AND squad at the same time within EZWin is not an easy or desireable task. But we were able to solve this problem using a heavily modified Excel spreadsheet that is included with the software package. We created a standard match registration for all shooters and all divisions for which they may shoot (for us that is approximately 600 shooter numbers). We then handle the actual registration and squadding within Excel in a MUCH more user friendly environment. Once registration is complete, I push the actual registered shooters to the computer and sync with the Master Palm.....the whole process after all shooters are registered takes maybe 15 minutes to have the Palms ready for the squads.

Because our club runs four matches (both a morning and afternoon match on Saturday and Sunday) and because of the large number of shooters we typically have, our situation is a little different from what a lot of clubs that would use this system. Therefore, our initial learning curve took a little longer because we were having to constantly modify our Excel software to get everything working in the way we needed to match our specific situation. But even with that extra time, it took us three local matches (three months since we only shoot once a month) before we were up and running 100% on this Palm software.

As for the reliability, the whole scoring system is as reliable as the Palms you are using. For that reason, we write the summary information on a scoresheet in order to have a paper backup. Plus maintaining a paper backup helps in keeping the shooting order of the squads. But once all scores have been entered, I take each squad's Palm, beam the scores into the Master Palm, then sync the Master Palm with the computer, and then upload the scores into EZWin - hit calculate results and scores are done! I literally can have scores posted within 15 minutes of the last shot fired.

The only problem with the Palm and EZWin is Single Stack division. The latest version does not recognize this division when transfering information back and forth from the Palm. Again, I fixed this issue via my Excel software but I also think that Rob is including a fix in the next maintenance release.

The cost is definitely prohibitive to many clubs, but once you do have the program - YOUR SCOREKEEPER WILL LOVE YOU! When I first saw just how thick 80+ scoresheets look like AND knowing that the scorekeeper had to enter six stages worth of scores for each - almost 500 stages worth of data, the money was worth it. The accuracy of the scores and the speed of the results was definitely worth some money to us.

[Rob Boudrie]

How reliable are the machines? Are they affected by heat/cold, dust/rain?

How long is the training process?

For local matches, is one per squad + spare enough?

Are all the problems interfacing with EZWin Score fixed?

If it is everything promised, is cost the only reason more don't use it?

Getting machines wet or dropping them is bad (but the screens can be operated through baggies). We've been using them at local matches at the Harvard, MA club all year without paper backup and have yet to toss a stage due to Palm failure. The 2008 rulebook will allow this procedure at Level I matches, but requires a paper log of times and hits (totals only) at Level II and Level III matches.

There are no known interface problems. EzWinScore now has "native integration", which means you do not have to go through a 10 step (approx) process with MS/Access. Three gun is also supported.

I'm trying to get Peter to publish a clear and simple to understand cost structure and both cost level, and confusion as to what the cost actually is, have impeded acceptance.

You need one per squad, a master and a spare - but, since the IIIxe is about $35 on ebay (yes, I know ebay sucks because they refuse to expose themselves to contingency fee litigation by selling gun parts) I recommend keeping a couple of spares.

[Rob Boudrie]

The only problem with the Palm and EZWin is Single Stack division. The latest version does not recognize this division when transfering information back and forth from the Palm. Again, I fixed this issue via my Excel software but I also think that Rob is including a fix in the next maintenance release.

This is not a problem.

The Palms are used for DATA COLLECTION. The correctness of the division in the Palm is irrelevant, since the division for the competitor stored in EzWinScore is the one used for preparation of results. Ditto for power factor.

I'll have to check to see if the lastest update transfers SS, but it really isn't necessary.

[moverfive]

The only problem with the Palm and EZWin is Single Stack division. The latest version does not recognize this division when transfering information back and forth from the Palm. Again, I fixed this issue via my Excel software but I also think that Rob is including a fix in the next maintenance release.

This is not a problem.

The Palms are used for DATA COLLECTION. The correctness of the division in the Palm is irrelevant, since the division for the competitor stored in EzWinScore is the one used for preparation of results. Ditto for power factor.

I'll have to check to see if the lastest update transfers SS, but it really isn't necessary.

.....for us it was a problem initially because only using EZWin was not a realistic option. So transfering the registration back and forth between EZWin and Excel was causing a naming issue.....if I remember correctly, it was transfering Single Stack as Limited 10 along with transferring Limited 10 as Limited 10. But again, I was able to create a simple work-around in my coding within Excel.

[Rob Boudrie]

Is there any reason you still need to use Excell, now that EzWinScore has integrated support for transfer with the Palms?

[moverfive]

yes there is - specifically for squadding. The squadding function within EZWin isn't as user friendly as what I have within my Excel spreadsheet. And because of the volume of shooters we get, any pre-squadding work will get changed once ALL shooters have arrived. Again, it is nothing for us to get 60 - 80 scores at our monthly match......and during the summer months, we will typically get closer to handling almost 100 scores. So trying to manage the squadding for that volume within EZWin is a task in itself in most cases.

Basically this is our process from the VERY beginning - all shooters are registered for the match in every division within EZWin. I save that group of registered shooters under a file called "New NTPS Match." I then export that registration and import the data into my Excel spreadsheet.....now once that is done, I don't do this export/import again. I then print out a shooter list with shooter number by division from my data import.

The at match registration, I only open up the Excel spreadsheet, have my shooter printout (the one mentioned above), and our standard registration form all next to person handling registration......and we await for the folks to show up. As a shooter registers, they fill out the registration form and enter their shooter number for first gun and the shooter number for second gun, if applicable. Because we run a second match, an afternoon match, on both days of our monthly match, we allow folks to shoot a "fun run" after their first gun. This 'fun run' does not count for score. So we solve this situation by assigning Revolver as the 'fun division.' I have coded my Excel spreadsheet to automatically make anyone registered for Revolver to be shown as a X match, meaning no-score in Palm PSS scoring terms. Since we have MANY that shoot fun runs and only about 5 revolver scores in an entire year - if I were to only use EZWin for registration/squadding, I would be doing a LOT of manual changes within the Palm to account for these fun runs. And I have the squadding tab to highlight those that are shown as Revolver as a reminder if we do need to make a manual change for those five times a revolver will show up (Come back Sam Keen we haven't seen you in a while).

So once everyone has registered, I then go to my squadding tab where I have the layout of the squads for the morning and afternoon matches for both Saturday and Sunday already in place. I simply enter the shooter number in the squad and appropriate match and all information populates from just the shooter number. Once we have the squads established, I then push ONLY the squadded shooters to the Master Palm. So while EZWin will have about 600 shooters registered for the match, only about 80 will be transferred to the Palm and thus not bog down its memory.

After that, the Excel spreadsheet is done and all interfacing is done between the Palms and EZWin. And after all scores are uploaded, we go to the missing scoresheets section and delete all missing shooters. And that 'New NTPS Match' file is saved under the appropriate name - i.e. 'NTPS October 2007.' And then publish the results.

If we were running a much smaller club or had the time to squad like we were preparing for a major match, then the Excel spreadsheet probably would be overkill. But because we handle a lot of shooters and need the flexibility and speed in squadding because of the small timeframe we have in order to try and the match going as soon as possible, we have to use the Excel spreadsheet.

Hopefully all of that made sense......

[EZ Bagger]

yes there is - specifically for squadding. The squadding function within EZWin isn't as user friendly as what I have within my Excel spreadsheet. And because of the volume of shooters we get, any pre-squadding work will get changed once ALL shooters have arrived. Again, it is nothing for us to get 60 - 80 scores at our monthly match......and during the summer months, we will typically get closer to handling almost 100 scores. So trying to manage the squadding for that volume within EZWin is a task in itself in most cases.

Basically this is our process from the VERY beginning - all shooters are registered for the match in every division within EZWin. I save that group of registered shooters under a file called "New NTPS Match." I then export that registration and import the data into my Excel spreadsheet.....now once that is done, I don't do this export/import again. I then print out a shooter list with shooter number by division from my data import.

The at match registration, I only open up the Excel spreadsheet, have my shooter printout (the one mentioned above), and our standard registration form all next to person handling registration......and we await for the folks to show up. As a shooter registers, they fill out the registration form and enter their shooter number for first gun and the shooter number for second gun, if applicable. Because we run a second match, an afternoon match, on both days of our monthly match, we allow folks to shoot a "fun run" after their first gun. This 'fun run' does not count for score. So we solve this situation by assigning Revolver as the 'fun division.' I have coded my Excel spreadsheet to automatically make anyone registered for Revolver to be shown as a X match, meaning no-score in Palm PSS scoring terms. Since we have MANY that shoot fun runs and only about 5 revolver scores in an entire year - if I were to only use EZWin for registration/squadding, I would be doing a LOT of manual changes within the Palm to account for these fun runs. And I have the squadding tab to highlight those that are shown as Revolver as a reminder if we do need to make a manual change for those five times a revolver will show up (Come back Sam Keen we haven't seen you in a while).

So once everyone has registered, I then go to my squadding tab where I have the layout of the squads for the morning and afternoon matches for both Saturday and Sunday already in place. I simply enter the shooter number in the squad and appropriate match and all information populates from just the shooter number. Once we have the squads established, I then push ONLY the squadded shooters to the Master Palm. So while EZWin will have about 600 shooters registered for the match, only about 80 will be transferred to the Palm and thus not bog down its memory.

After that, the Excel spreadsheet is done and all interfacing is done between the Palms and EZWin. And after all scores are uploaded, we go to the missing scoresheets section and delete all missing shooters. And that 'New NTPS Match' file is saved under the appropriate name - i.e. 'NTPS October 2007.' And then publish the results.

If we were running a much smaller club or had the time to squad like we were preparing for a major match, then the Excel spreadsheet probably would be overkill. But because we handle a lot of shooters and need the flexibility and speed in squadding because of the small timeframe we have in order to try and the match going as soon as possible, we have to use the Excel spreadsheet.

Hopefully all of that made sense......

Doesn't the newer version of A.S.S. do squadding?

[lynn jones]

Doesn't the newer version of A.S.S. do squadding?

do you mean match magic? the palm, you have to manually assign squads.

lynn

p.s. the new versions of both ezwin and the palm software really works great together.

[Hoofy]

If it is really the cat's meow, why aren't more clubs using it?

We are a young club, youngest on the Front Range, we could use a lot more props.

But 2nd on the list is a better way to score and post the scores, we know that this is what the shooters want. Props, we can buy today.

Palm Scoring will take a few years to pay for, so that is why it is down on the list.

There are times when local scores don't get posted for 5 days, (not ours) and the biggest reason is - find the idiot that left squad 3's scoresheets for stage 1 in their range bag. A lot of post match work could easily be automated, but only one product out there fits the bill? What was it like before EZ Win Score?

[Rob Boudrie]

do you mean match magic? the palm, you have to manually assign squads.

Squads form EzWinScore do get transferred to the Palms.

The local matches (40-90 shooters) at the local club don't use the squadding feature in the Palm. We write the shooting order on a target with competitor numbers and leave that with the range bags at each stage. The RO uses the "select competitor bu number" feature. This allows match staff to register people and transfer the registrations to the Palm while the squads are forming. Generally the prepared Palms arrive shortlybefore the squads are fully in place.

[EZ Bagger]

do you mean match magic? the palm, you have to manually assign squads.

Squads form EzWinScore do get transferred to the Palms.

Does this also work in the reverse? For example, we would not even touch EWS until the match was over (we average 30 shooters a match). If we break out the squads in the palms, does that affect EWS at all?

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that it works out well to just select the proper shooter in the Palms and not even worry about using it's squadding feature for small matches....

Thanks.

[lynn jones]

do you mean match magic? the palm, you have to manually assign squads.

Squads form EzWinScore do get transferred to the Palms.

Does this also work in the reverse? For example, we would not even touch EWS until the match was over (we average 30 shooters a match). If we break out the squads in the palms, does that affect EWS at all?

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that it works out well to just select the proper shooter in the Palms and not even worry about using it's squadding feature for small matches....

Thanks.

when you use EzWinScore to down load the squads, the program allows for walkins. i.e. walkin 1-10. you change the name on the palm from walkin 1 to john doe and score and sync. walkin 1 is changed in EzWinScore.

lynn

Edited October 24, 2007 by lynn jones

[Rob Boudrie]

when you use EzWinScore to down load the squads, the program allows for walkins. i.e. walkin 1-10. you change the name on the palm from walkin 1 to john doe and score and sync. walkin 1 is changed in EzWinScore.

This is not correct.

When you transfer scores from the Palm, you are not transferring registration data. The way walk-ins are handled is as follows:

1. Create walk-ins in EzWinScore when creating a match. An EzWinScore allows you do to this in batches of 10 (easier than doing it manually). You will transfer the entire registration list to the Palm before starting the match. (stage designs are entered on the Palm, and transferred to EzWinScore)

2. When you have a Walk-in competitor, change their name in EzWinScore ONLY. Use that competitor number on the Palm (the automatically created ones have names like "Walking Z234", etc. but it can be any name you wish) when you score the competitor.

3. When the data is synced from the Palms, only scores and times are transferred, not names. The score from competitor 123 in the Palm is transferred to competitor 123 in EzWinScore, etc.

Walk-ins are very easy to handle as long as you have the "placeholder" competitors defined.

At the conclusion of the match, you can use an EzWinScore feature that will delete all competitors for whom no scores have been entered on any stage (which makes it very easy to remove the no-shows, and the walkin placeholders that were not used).

Rob

[EZ Bagger]

OK We're a small club with (definitely) under 50 shooters. All of our shooters are Walk Ins, the day of the match. Do I have this process right (and most efficient)?

Match/stages are entered into EWS

Registration is done in EWS

Transfer of competitors and stages to Palms (beaming or SD cards)

Shoot match

Score match

Transfer scores from Palms to EWS (Beaming or SD cards)

EWS info to USPSA

Thanks again.

[DCW]

We used the Palm scoring for the first time this weekend. The software was easy to use, even for non Palm guys, and it worked flawlessly !!! All of the shooters seemed to like the Palm scoring and the "instant scores" it promises. Several commented after the match that they were hooked on the Palm scoring. The shooter can instantly see his time, total hits, and hit factor before before the RO finalizes his score.

We had 46 shooters and 6 stages. We used EZWS to assign squad numbers and our usual registration form to assign sequential shooter numbers (same # as EZWS) . This weekend we used a paper backup, a belt and suspenders approach, to make sure we did not have any lost data issues.

Paper backup was totally unnecessary. We recorded only shooter #, time and total hits on the paper score summary sheets. The scorekeeper, me, never looked at 1 of them. Next month we will provide the single generic scoresheet to the shooter, if he wants it, to record his own total hits and time for his own record. No more paper backup for us at our local matches.

We used 1 Palm per STAGE, 1 extra, 1 master, 1 backup master. We kept the Palm on one stage because you can deactivate all stages except the Palms assigned stage. This eliminates the possibility of scoring the wrong stage. The scorekeeper only has to make sure he is scoring the correct shooter identified by shooter number and name. The other stages on the Palm are locked by the stats guy's secret PIN so only he can unlock it

Stages are created on the Master palm in a couple of minutes and then uploaded to EZWS in a couple of seconds. Shooter info (squad, USPSA#, Div, Class etc) is downloaded to the Master palm from EZWS in a couple of seconds. Then you simply beam the shooters and stages to each Stage Palm again about 10 seconds each. This whole process took about 10 minutes.

Scoring was completed about 1/2 hour after shooting was finished. The results were posted on USPSA later that evening. The several hour delay was the result of the stats guy having refreshments with his shooting buddies and dinner with his family afterwards. Next match I will send the results from the WiFi enabled pub while we are bragging about our shooting skills and enjoying the camradarie with our fellow shooters . This will cut the time from last shot to posting to well under 2 hours. This is a significant improvement over our several day average time to posting.

Feel free to email me if you would like more info.

Dennis

[Rob Boudrie]

Competitor registration originates in EzWinScore and transfers to the Palms.

Stages designs originate in the Palms and transfer to EzWinScore (You will need to change the "classifier" setting on a stage in EzWinScore if you have defined a classifier in the Palm). The reason the stages start in the Palm is that the Palm has more stage detail - a stage of 3 targets with 2 hits each is not the same as one with 2 targets of 3 hits each from the Palm perspective, but it is the same from EzWinScore's point of view.

[EZ Bagger]

Thanks guys, great info!

Is it possible to use the "Master" to score a squad? For example, we normally have 3 squads. Could we make do with 3 Palms/Software purchases?

[DCW]

You could do 3 stages or squads with 3 palms ...4 would be safer. I think you need to name 1 palm the MASTER and the others slaves. You want ALL of the competitor and stage designs to come from the Master palm to the slaves. This insures that all devices have essential exact copies of the databases.

In addition the slaves will only transmit scores...this minimizes the probability of an RO or scorekeeper inadvertently deletes a stage a shooter or the MATCH !!!! The Master allows more 2 way communication between palms then you want to allow for data integrity purposes.

I forgot to mention in the previous post that we used the slaves to beam stage results to the backup master periodically and then from the backup to the master. We were really into the belt and suspender mode. We ended up at the end of the match with 4 electronic copies and 1 paper copy of the scores !!! 1 copy in the stage slaves, the full match in the backup Master, full match in the Master, full match in EZWS, and full match on paper. Keep in mind this is a lot of words but it only takes a couple of seconds to beam stage results.

If you go on the ASS website and go to the downloads section there are numerous pdf files describing the palm scoring process. There is also an excellent EZWS/Palm scoring instruction booklet on the EZWS support page on the USPSA website.

Dennis

[shred]

I'm trying to get Peter to publish a clear and simple to understand cost structure and both cost level, and confusion as to what the cost actually is, have impeded acceptance.

This is exactly what's made Palm scoring a non-starter around here. Nearly every club scores on-site day-of-match or close to it, but they all do it on standalone PCs, which are basically free, software included. The stories and rumors of A.S.S. pricing from a few years ago make it something nobody even thinks about anymore.

[AWLAZS]

I don't know how the system works but my club uses the palms. We get the results faster then ever

[Hoofy]

I'm trying to get Peter to publish a clear and simple to understand cost structure and both cost level, and confusion as to what the cost actually is, have impeded acceptance.

This is exactly what's made Palm scoring a non-starter around here. Nearly every club scores on-site day-of-match or close to it, but they all do it on standalone PCs, which are basically free, software included. The stories and rumors of A.S.S. pricing from a few years ago make it something nobody even thinks about anymore.

If given the opprotunity to sell 50 widgets at $300, or 1000 widgets at $100... ah forget it.

[Matt P.]

We evaluated the software and the process, and outside of the cost to the club, We decided not to pursue because we are concerned of the volatility of being so dependant on a small business provider and that being halfway (or all the way) around the world. We felt support was low and training for our people was too high and Cumbersome. I realize that some clubs use it successfully however it is not for us.

Personally I believe the software could be a bit more intuitive. It has always been my belief that software should conform to you and not the other way around.

I know I have had a brief discussion with Rob about re-writing EzWin score in a more widely accepted format such as SQL with ASP.net or something that allows us other computers geeks to write our own stuff. I think if something like that were to happen, some programmer/gunners would come out of the woodwork and develope something that could be shared throughout our sport at a cost effective approach for our clubs.

Also, I don't know about most people but, looking at a 2 * 2 inch screen while trying to score drives my eyes batty!

Edited October 25, 2007 by Matt P.