Setting Practical Production Division Guidelines

[Bucky]

It seems that by setting blanket guidelines for a division, such as production, we leave it open for certain "racey" modifications, yet restrict certain simple and practical modifications. One example quickly comes to mind. With a Glock, since you are allowed to do "trigger work", I've seen sub one pound triggers that were down right scarey. This in my opinion is not what was intended for this division. Yet the $5 Jensen Grip plug which installs in seconds and is a practical addition is not allowed. Anyone on the same page as me here? How would you change it?

-- Bucky.

[Flexmoney]

Bucky,

You make a great point.

But, I wouldn't change a thing. What you and I might consider common sense (I don't mind a speed-bump trigger or a grip plug), the next guy might think is an un-fair advantage. And, who knows what somebody would come up with that we might not agree upon.

[David Olhasso]

The production rules are somewhat of a joke. Take a look at what you can and can't do. This is all from Amidon emails, front page articles, and postings.

1) You cannot install an aftermarket external part such as a grips, triggers, or safeties UNLESS they are identical to the factory part.

2) Ignore #1 if the gun manufacture decides to offer the third party part for sale. Then the part is OK.

3) You can add 2oz of tungsten to the guiderod.

4) You can not add a .2oz piece of plastic to the bottom of a glock grip.

5) You can add a bomar sight that hangs 3/4" off the back of the slide.

6) You can add all the grip-tape you want to the gun.

7) You cannot grind off a single shred of metal from the gun.

8) Magazines with slam pads are not allowed.

9) Ignore #8 if the gun manufacture offers the slam pad for sale

10) If you want to shoot a glock 27, you can't use a 10-round magazine from the 23 or 22.

11) If you want to shoot a sig 220, you can't use a 10-round extended magazine.

12) Race holsters are bad.

13) Race mag holders are good.

14) Extended mag buttons and slide releases are not allowed.

15) Ignore #14 if the gun manufacture sells the part on another gun.

16) And why the heck is it scored minor?

Even with all of the BS rules, I still love shooting production.

[Duane Thomas]

16) And why the heck is it scored minor?

Because USPSA leadership realizes the 9mm Parabellum is a very popular self-defense cartridge. If they stuck to the standard Major/Minor scoring system, the guys shooting .40s and .45s would have an advantage, and all the guys shooting and toting Glock 19s, SIG P228s, Beretta 92s, etc., etc. wouldn't come out to play.

The rules make pretty good sense to me, as far as what parts are allowed and disallowed. If the manufacturer offers it, you can have it. If they don't, you can't.

[Vince Pinto]

For the record, the "Minor only" rule for what was then a totally new Division, was actually a concept of the IPSC Rules Committee, and it was adopted worldwide.

Having said that, I cannot understand why the USPSA delegate (at that time), voted in favour of IPSC Production Rules "as is" at the General Assembly in 1999, then returned home and changed everything domestically.

One of the mysteries of life ...........

[Bucky]

One IPSC rule that I wish we adopted is the minimum trigger weight for the first shot. Perhaps we could have lowered it to from 5 to 3 pounds. One area that we couldn't adopt is the magazine rule. We need this division to have a 10 round limit for obvious reasons.

Not sure how far the "if the manufacturer offers it, its legal" will go. It already had a test and failed at the 2002 Factory Gun Nationals. Bruce Gray was shooting a factory HK with a factory mag well. By all accounts it should have met the production guidelines, but it was not allowed because the mag well was considered "too gamey". While I think the ruling was right from a logical point a view, not sure I remember reading that in the rule book.

[vluc]

7) You cannot grind off a single shred of metal from the gun.

Sooooooo...since I shoot a Glock and it is polymer, i should be able to do some dremeling on those pesky finger grooves...

After all, there is a factory version of the receiver that has no grooves....

hehehe

[Flexmoney]

Bucky,

That is interesting about Bruce G and the HK magwell.

I do recall reading an article a while back...maybe written by Bruce (or Duane T.)? (And this would cover the extent of my HK knowledge.) Seems like that "factory magwell" wasn't available on anything that was being sold here in the USA? If so, that would be pretty gamey...though, i'm not sure if it would be against the rules (I guess the Range Masters made their call though).

[Skywalker]

Just a question Bucky,

I'm almost totally new to glocks.

How can you have

sub one pound triggers that were down right scarey

and use that gun in Prod Division, where the first shot has to be broken by a 5lbs trigger pull?

Aren't glock famous for having the same trigger pull from the very first to the last shot?

I suppose you were referring to trigger works for Glocks in Standard division, weren't you?

[Bucky]

Skywalker67

I was talking about USPSA Production division which does not have a minimum trigger pull requirement.

-- Bucky.

[Bucky]

I do recall reading an article a while back...maybe written by Bruce (or Duane T.)? (And this would cover the extent of my HK knowledge.) Seems like that "factory magwell" wasn't available on anything that was being sold here in the USA? If so, that would be pretty gamey...though, i'm not sure if it would be against the rules (I guess the Range Masters made their call though).

I shot with Bruce at the Nats. I was under the impression that the gun met all the requirements, except that they didn't like the magwell. If what you are saying is true, then what happens when HK does offer it up as a standard option???

[THS]

I, for one, am for changing the silly ruling on the jentra plugs for Glocks, as well a little more.

Coming from a bulleye background where the rule is "External modifications not allowed, except for...." (a real short list) in the service pistol match this seems pretty simple. Production guns have already got the precept of "No external modifications, Sights excepted" as in bullseye, and that makes things easier to enforce and apply. The heavy guide rods are unseen, and would be OK, as would trigger work, or other internal (reliability?) work.

Has anyone ever been to a match that weighed a gun to see if the 2 ounce rule was violated? What are we using as a baseline for that, the individual gun, or manufacturers data estimate? Internal mods, like the jentra plug that can't be seen from a side profile and are INSIDE the grip, would also be legal if we used the "external mods" method of keeping things inside the box, per se.

Given the complexity in weighing triggers or complete guns in the club match setting, I think we need to move in the direction outlined above.

Overall production is a good thing. I consider myself a limited shooter, but just spent a month shooting 5 production matches due to logistical concerns, and I felt like it has helped my shooting in the big picture.

Tom

[Bucky]

Given the complexity in weighing triggers or complete guns in the club match setting, I think we need to move in the direction outlined above.

Most local matches don't chrono any more either. It doesn't mean that we should get rid of power factors.

Has anyone ever been to a match that weighed a gun to see if the 2 ounce rule was violated? What are we using as a baseline for that, the individual gun, or manufacturers data estimate?

Problem with the rules is that many of us will abide by them whether they are being checked for or not. But there are some that will not. At last year's FGN I saw quite a few production guns that were not legit. They seemed to be more concerned that you didn't move your holster around or add a magazine pouch then whether of not your gun complied.

[Vince Pinto]

In case you guys were wondering, the trigger pull in IPSC Production is measured at the chrono stage.

The RO places a 5lb weight with a large hook on the table, clears then cocks your gun, puts the hook over the centre of the trigger and he gently lifts the gun while it's pointing vertically skywards. If the trigger holds on at least one of three attempts, you're good to go.

Trivia: Being a Glock buff, I yelled, screamed and fought tooth & nail for a 3lb trigger pull weight but the rest of the world (except IPSC Austria!), beat the living doo-doo outta me.

I still think coulda taken them all until they cheated. They had a sexy girl walk into the room wearing "Daisy Duke" cut-off jeans, I got distracted and, well, dem's the breaks.

[Duane Thomas]

I do recall reading an article a while back...maybe written by Bruce (or Duane T.)? (And this would cover the extent of my HK knowledge.) Seems like that "factory magwell" wasn't available on anything that was being sold here in the USA? If so, that would be pretty gamey...though, i'm not sure if it would be against the rules (I guess the Range Masters made their call though).

I know the answer to this only because I did an article on the HK USP Expert - which was what Bruce was going to use at the match. The mag funnel is a standard production part on that gun, which is indeed imported into the US. The match officials just thought it "violated the spirit" of the division, even though it was legal by the rules. I felt that was a bit raw, personally. I thought the idea was that if we wanted certain features on a Production gun - like mag funnels - eventually the factories would start producing them, and that would be a good thing. Guess not.

[Flexmoney]

That's bogus.

I thought the idea was that if we wanted certain features on a Production gun - like mag funnels - eventually the factories would start producing them, and that would be a good thing.

That was my though too.

(DT, have there been 2,000 of those guns with the funnels produced? In one year? In the USA?)

[mcoliver]

The RO places a 5lb weight with a large hook on the table, clears then cocks your gun, puts the hook over the centre of the trigger and he gently lifts the gun while it's pointing vertically skywards. If the trigger holds on at least one of three attempts, you're good to go.

Hi Vince. I'm having trouble understanding this:

1. Gun hammer should be down for the 5lbs, right? So its shouldn't be "cocked"?

2. A trigger that requires 5lbs to break WILL break if a 5lb weight is used. So a weight of ~4.99lbs should be used, right? Unless we expect all prod. guns' triggers to break a tad bit above 5lbs. Wouldn't it be better if a scaled trigger gauge be used to read the actual poundage instead?

Thanks.

[Skywalker]

McOliver,

being Vince a "Glock-thusiast", I suppose he was actually thinking of "half-cocking" the trigger mechanism of a Glock, that otherwise will hold a 100 lbs weight (i.e. it won't shoot).

For revolvers, DAO and classic double action self-loaders, you should be right.

I think you've got a point on the gauge too: that is why some of us think that Poppers calibration procedure shoud be carried out with ammo somewhat below PF 125.

Bucky,

I keep forgetting that USPSA rules are different than IPSC ones. Thanks for reminding me.

Could you advice also on where did I leave my Alzheimer medicine too?

[Bucky]

Skywalker67,

It's sitting next to mine. I just forgot where that is.

[Vince Pinto]

McOliver,

Um, ah, I was just testing to see if you guys were awake ......... good, now somebody wake me up! Mea culpa.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. The chrono guy is testing your double-action first shot, so there's no need to cock the gun for the test, and a sliding weight gauge is perfectly acceptable.

And I just checked and my trigger weight is 4.9999 pounds

Hey Bucky, pass the Alzheimer pills, dude. Last night I took two Viagra by mistake and I was up all night.

[Duane Thomas]

and he gently lifts the gun while it's pointing vertically skywards.

Vince,

I've always used my NRA weight set by hanging it off the trigger first, then adding the weights. Is stacking the weights, then lifting, the technically "correct" technique? This would only make, I would think, about 1/4 pound difference in what it takes to drop the hammer, but still, 1/4 pound is 1/4 pound.

- Duane Thomas, Master of Obvious Statements

[THS]

Bucky,

My point was missed.

1. We don't need rule we can't or wont enforce, and the 2 ounce weight limit is one.

2. Simple rules are better. "No external modifications except, grip tape, checkering, or replacement of sights with a similar design (Post and notch ONLY)"

3. I did not imply we stop chrono'ing either: in fact I'd love to see it at EVERY match I shoot. Too many times I see guns that move WAY less, and sound way weaker too, than a 9mm. HA!

Lets get simple rules, and enforce them.

Tom

[Vince Pinto]

Duane,

Currently we don't have an official trigger pull testing protocol, but the current Rules Committee have agreed on the following, subject to ratification at the next IPSC General Assembly:

(Rule number TBA): The trigger pull shall be measured as follows:

1. The unloaded gun will be cocked and all external safety levers will be disengaged;

2. The hook of the trigger weight or scale will be placed in the center of the trigger pad;

3. The gun with the muzzle pointed skywards must raise and hold a 2.25 kg (~5 lb) weight, or register this same weight on a scale;

4. The above test shall be conducted a maximum of three (3) times;

5. If the hammer or striker does not fall on any one (1) of the three (3) attempts, the gun has satisfied the requirements of this division.

6. If the hammer or striker falls on all three (3) attempts, the gun has failed to satisfy the requirements of the division and Rule 6.2.6 shall apply.

7. Guns with non-standard actions (e.g. "squeeze-cockers") shall be tested as directed by the officiating Range Master.

Obviously, in light of comments made earlier in this thread, we'll revise Point 1 of the testing protocol, as we don't need to cock the gun, and I'll recommend:

Alt 1. The unloaded gun will be prepared by disengaging any external safety levers and decocking;

[Bucky]

Vince,

So no one on the rules committee has enough familiarity with current production guns to notice the problem with rule #1? What, do they all shoot Glocks.... and nothing else?

Does anyone see a problem with this?

-- Bucky.

[THS]

I'm with Bucky.

If they do step one with my Sig, then it is a SA shot. I diddn't know they were allowed.

The NRA has a well written set of directions for weighing triggers. They also state the "trigger must pick up X pounds" which means thhat mine must be a fraction over to pass. No sliding or electronic scales are allowed: too unreliable.

Weighing triggers is an art. With a 1911 or 2011, or any other sliding trigger platform, the location of the weight on the trigger face is not too critical. But where the Glock and Beretta and many others have a pivoting trigger, the farther from the pivot point, (trigger pin) the less weight they'll pick up as a result of the lever effect. Worse yet, these triggers are curved, meaning the weight will want to settle at the lowest point. In the case of the glock when I keep the barrel vertical, the weight bar moves right up against the frame and will not touch the center part of the trigger meaning it could pick up a ton.

On a P9 with the straight trigger it moves the other way, out against the trigger guard, and tells me my trigger is about half what it feels like. I guess if I could press from the very end it would feel that light, but...

Weighing triggers is NOT for USPSA, as it is a semi-complex operation that can depend greatly on the skill of the person conducting the test (ask any Bullseye shooter about how some armorers can pass or fail a trigger through how they use the weights!).

I've waited in some pretty long lines at the NRA National Championships to get mine weighed before firing, and then seen random checks again during firing, and then protests, all because someone was looking for an edge either way.

PLEASE keep the rules, especially in production, simple and easy to enforce. Let's keep the techncal inspections like NASCAR in the race divisions.

There will always be gamesmen, and the only thing they "win" when they cheat is flase glory. The rest of us know who and what they are too.

Tom