Shooting to the Left

[spook]

My Glock with Ameriglo fixed target sights shoots to the left. About 2 inches at 10y.

I get very decent groups with it at all distances, but they're all to the left. I remember having the same thing with my Dawson Adjustables on the same Glock.

I found these other threads on the subject:

Click here and here

The threads I found on the subject had a lot of shooters with the same "problem" and some shooters who say it's technique-related and the sights should be left alone.

I am in doubt.

I am a pretty accurate shot, and I am sure the sights do not move when I break the shot. I don't flinch or blink. I get good groups. So I am inclined to move the sight (which is already off-center to the right even further) to the right.

OTOH my gut tells me there is something wrong about a gun with the sight drifted all the way to the right.

I let my buddy shoot the gun and when he shoots, the shots are in the middle.

I guess my question is this:

1) How can the it be that the sights are alligned, don't move when the shot breaks and end up going left of the center of the target?

2) When is it time to drift the sights and stop blaming "bad technique"? What I mean is that it seems kind of pointless to me to change the whole way I pull the trigger just to change POI (since I shoot good groups)

PS With my revolver I had the sights to the right just a tad (it was not completely centered).

Edited October 16, 2007 by spook

[SRT Driver]

Spook,

I am left handed and had the an issue with the shots printing to the right. Like you, I am an accurate shot with a revo. I played with my grip tension and trigger finger placement. Fwiw, I had a Non Glock shooting, right handed friend shoot the same gun and his shots printed to the left.

The problem was a technique issue. I found that I had too much grip tension in my strong hand. Loosening the stong hand slightly cured the problem.

Since you are a revo shooter, you also might be pulling the trigger a bit hard. Try tapping the trigger (feeling the pre travel) until the shot breaks and then see where it prints.

Hope this helps.

[Flexmoney]

Shoot it with the off hand and see where the hits go.

[MagicTH]

My Glock with Ameriglo fixed target sights shoots to the left. About 2 inches at 10y.

I let my buddy shoot the gun and when he shoots, the shots are in the middle.

Using logic (not shooting experience) if your buddy shoots to the middle then it's you. Have you tried shooting from a bench rest / sandbag?

[spook]

Spook,

I am left handed and had the an issue with the shots printing to the right. Like you, I am an accurate shot with a revo. I played with my grip tension and trigger finger placement. Fwiw, I had a Non Glock shooting, right handed friend shoot the same gun and his shots printed to the left.

The problem was a technique issue. I found that I had too much grip tension in my strong hand. Loosening the stong hand slightly cured the problem.

Since you are a revo shooter, you also might be pulling the trigger a bit hard. Try tapping the trigger (feeling the pre travel) until the shot breaks and then see where it prints.

Hope this helps.

SRT, thanks, I will try the thing with the grip pressure. It's the only thing I haven't really thought of/experimented with.

Shoot it with the off hand and see where the hits go.

Flex, I saw you suggested that in some other threads I read today. I'll check that out tomorrow. Good suggestion, because if I pull the shots to the right with my left hand, it would be useless to adjust the sight, because I would get into trouble shooting WH stages.

Using logic (not shooting experience) if your buddy shoots to the middle then it's you. Have you tried shooting from a bench rest / sandbag?

MagicTH, It's definately me, no doubt. I was just wondering, if I'm getting good groups, why alter the way I pull the trigger when I can just adjust the sights?

[00bullitt]

What your seeing is too much pressure exerted on the frame with the trigger finger which is quite common. More than likely you are putting too much trigger finger into the trigger guard and putting tension on the frame while pressing the trigger straight to the rear with the third pad/section of your trigger finger. You will see consistent printing to the left if you are a right handed shooter and consistent right shots if you are left handed. If you are shooting low left then you have other issues with jerking the trigger to the rear instead of pressing it. It sounds like a Glock technique issue. I would not adjust the sights to correct for a problem in poor form. Try just putting the pad of your trigger finger on the trigger and pressing it striaght to the rear. Your shots should center up. you should be able to slide a pencil between your trigger fingers third pad/section and the frame if form is correct unless you have small hands or little short stubby fingers.

[AFH]

spook,

00bullitt nailed the answer. One slight point of difference is that the movement of the bore is probably due the exertion of a leftward lateral force through the trigger and into the frame. I have seen this issue discussed for years on various forums, usually to no avail. The "shoot to the left" problem is not limited to Glocks, but I believe their popularity and that 3.5# or 5# trigger often makes it more noticable. If you hang around enough classes, especially with new shooters, you see the problem with all kinds of handguns. If you would like some further advice on the matter please check out the following discussion thread and ask for any clarifications you need. http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230

(I hope that works -- I don't post often and have never inserted a hyperlink -- if not I guess you can copy and paste)

Good luck,

Andy

[danny]

Spook,

I am left handed and had the an issue with the shots printing to the right. Like you, I am an accurate shot with a revo. I played with my grip tension and trigger finger placement. Fwiw, I had a Non Glock shooting, right handed friend shoot the same gun and his shots printed to the left.

The problem was a technique issue. I found that I had too much grip tension in my strong hand. Loosening the stong hand slightly cured the problem.

Since you are a revo shooter, you also might be pulling the trigger a bit hard. Try tapping the trigger (feeling the pre travel) until the shot breaks and then see where it prints.

Hope this helps.

SRT, thanks, I will try the thing with the grip pressure. It's the only thing I haven't really thought of/experimented with.

Shoot it with the off hand and see where the hits go.

Flex, I saw you suggested that in some other threads I read today. I'll check that out tomorrow. Good suggestion, because if I pull the shots to the right with my left hand, it would be useless to adjust the sight, because I would get into trouble shooting WH stages.

Using logic (not shooting experience) if your buddy shoots to the middle then it's you. Have you tried shooting from a bench rest / sandbag?

MagicTH, It's definately me, no doubt. I was just wondering, if I'm getting good groups, why alter the way I pull the trigger when I can just adjust the sights?

If your shooting a good group and you r consistant, move the sights

[dirty whiteboy]

Try dry fire with a nickel lying flat on the front sight. The coin should not fall when you press the trigger and the striker fires. Gives you an idea of how you need to press the trigger for good accuracy.

[spook]

What your seeing is too much pressure exerted on the frame with the trigger finger which is quite common. More than likely you are putting too much trigger finger into the trigger guard and putting tension on the frame while pressing the trigger straight to the rear with the third pad/section of your trigger finger. You will see consistent printing to the left if you are a right handed shooter and consistent right shots if you are left handed.

Try just putting the pad of your trigger finger on the trigger and pressing it striaght to the rear. Your shots should center up. you should be able to slide a pencil between your trigger fingers third pad/section and the frame if form is correct unless you have small hands or little short stubby fingers.

The way I pull the trigger right now easily passes the "pencil test". I am pulling the trigger with the pad/tip of the pad right now. Definately not too much trigger finger. As a matter, I tried with more trigger finger (almost the 1st joint) and noticed the sights moved even less when really snapping the trigger.

I have (really) large hands and long fingers. I think the problem lies there. My trigger finger is so long, I can't get the pad of it square on the trigger. It always contacts the trigger at an angle.

When I put more finger on the trigger (1st joint), my finger contacts the trigger in a way that it can only be pushed straight back.

spook,

00bullitt nailed the answer. One slight point of difference is that the movement of the bore is probably due the exertion of a leftward lateral force through the trigger and into the frame. I have seen this issue discussed for years on various forums, usually to no avail. The "shoot to the left" problem is not limited to Glocks, but I believe their popularity and that 3.5# or 5# trigger often makes it more noticable. If you hang around enough classes, especially with new shooters, you see the problem with all kinds of handguns. If you would like some further advice on the matter please check out the following discussion thread and ask for any clarifications you need. http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230

(I hope that works -- I don't post often and have never inserted a hyperlink -- if not I guess you can copy and paste)

Good luck,

Andy

Andy, thanks for the link. I googled for "glock shoots left" and read the thread before I started the topic. I am very interested in the trigger torque theory. I will order one of the FF books to check that out.

If your shooting a good group and you r consistant, move the sights

That's what I thought, until Flex said something about shooting weak hand. I'll check that out on the range tonight.

Try dry fire with a nickel lying flat on the front sight. The coin should not fall when you press the trigger and the striker fires. Gives you an idea of how you need to press the trigger for good accuracy.

I can put a coin on the FS and snap the trigger any way I like without dropping it. That's not the problem. I believe my trigger control is quite good, actually, which is why I can't explain the shots going left

[Micah]

I'd suggest shooting your Glock from sandbags or a ransom rest. If you are grouping to the left...you know the deal. The same goes for grouping in the 10 ring. Another suggestion is to use more weak hand (cowbell?) when you shoot, and less strong hand. I know that you are an experienced shooter and am eager to see what results you find.

[SA Friday]

MagicTH, It's definately me, no doubt. I was just wondering, if I'm getting good groups, why alter the way I pull the trigger when I can just adjust the sights?

Fix the problem, not fit the gun to the problem. If you are shooting left and it's your basic techniques causing this, then correct your basic techniques. In any sport, there is a set of basic techniques that must be solid for the athlete to excel. If the basics are not solid, you will always have to fight it. For example, second guessing where your shot will hit the target at 30+yards. Do you compensate for the slightly to the left shooting, or not? You will see the results multiplied the further out the target gets.

Its a PITA to fix the real issue when just moving the sight sounds like the easiest fix, but sometimes the right way is the hard way.

BTW, I have this issue too, and have been working hard on fixing my basic technique errors. My shooting lately has suffered because of it, but in the end, I will be a better shooter. For me to make my next step to my M card, I can't be fighting myself for the "right" way. It will have to be engrained.

[TxD]

I let my buddy shoot the gun and when he shoots, the shots are in the middle.

Bjorn.

Sell the Glock to your buddy and get back to the revolver where you belong!

That Glock doesn't have anything that rotates and the counterbalance that you

are accustomed to is missing.

Just kidding.

I have large hands and the same problem as you when shooting the Glock.

My only solution was to jamb the trigger finger in to the first knuckle

when pulling the trigger or increase trigger reach by adding bondo to top of the rear strap.

Good Luck and glad to see you posting again.

[spook]

I'd suggest shooting your Glock from sandbags or a ransom rest. If you are grouping to the left...you know the deal. The same goes for grouping in the 10 ring. Another suggestion is to use more weak hand (cowbell?) when you shoot, and less strong hand. I know that you are an experienced shooter and am eager to see what results you find.

So basically you think:

+ =

Interesting. I'll try it out tonight (if I can get the steel shooters to clear the range for a second, otherwise it'll be friday). I'll post results.

TxD thanks

Your joke about the rotating cylinder actually made me think about that and wonder if it's not a factor.

And I am looking into buying a revolver, but am still in doubt about the caliber/platform. Plus nobody wants to buy my Glock... I wonder why

[spook]

MagicTH, It's definately me, no doubt. I was just wondering, if I'm getting good groups, why alter the way I pull the trigger when I can just adjust the sights?

Fix the problem, not fit the gun to the problem. If you are shooting left and it's your basic techniques causing this, then correct your basic techniques. In any sport, there is a set of basic techniques that must be solid for the athlete to excel. If the basics are not solid, you will always have to fight it. For example, second guessing where your shot will hit the target at 30+yards. Do you compensate for the slightly to the left shooting, or not? You will see the results multiplied the further out the target gets.

Its a PITA to fix the real issue when just moving the sight sounds like the easiest fix, but sometimes the right way is the hard way.

BTW, I have this issue too, and have been working hard on fixing my basic technique errors. My shooting lately has suffered because of it, but in the end, I will be a better shooter. For me to make my next step to my M card, I can't be fighting myself for the "right" way. It will have to be engrained.

As I posted earlier, this is my dillemma. If I would have to second guess I would know where to put the work. But I don't have to second guess. If I shoot a 50yd. target I can call my shots exactly. It will be around the C/D line upper left, and that's not where I want them to go

I'll see what happens tonight at the range. My schedule for tonight:

20 rnds. 15yds Freestyle

20 rnds. 15yds Strong hand

20 rnds. 15yds Weak hand

20 rnds. 25yds Rested

I will use 4 different targets and compare the senters of the groups. That should give me an idea of what to do. If everything is to the left, I'll adjust the sights. If I shoot to the right Weak hand, I'll have to change my trigger technique (or sell the gun and get a revolver )

[Skywalker]

Bjorn,

given the fact that you have already demonstrated the whole world (literally) that you can shoot a double-action gun proficiently, I'd be inclined to think it must be something related to your grip or your eyesight (the gun should be precise if your buddy can shoot it to POA).

If you had a similar issue with a revo (although not that much accentuated), I'd be even more inclined to think so.

It might be the way your finger pad contacts the trigger (the fact that you have BIG hands might be exagerating the problem), or it might be something in your eyesight/vision.

I wouldn't be such worried about drifting the rear sight: provided you can consistently (and I mean for every shot you fire, under each circumstance) print your hits on the left, I'd be inclined to adjust the rear sight.

Maybe you can do a final test: try shooting groups placing a different portion of the trigger finger on trigger.

Try to find (if there is any) a combination of grip/trigger finger placement with which the group prints exactly to POA.

Try different ways of gripping the gun as well: I take it that the way to grip a revo is different from the one to grip a semiauto, and you might be still gripping your glock as a SW.

Anyway, in the end, after the above tests, you might be able to determine if it's a grip (or trigger finger placement) issue, or if it is an eyesight one.

In the first case, you need to re-learn to grip and shoot your gun, in the latter you might drift that rear sight and don't worry anymore.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Skywalker

[mikey357]

Bjorn, given your "Track Record" in Competition, and the fact that the Glock IS "Grouping", I'd just move the sights so that the POA and POI coincide...not all guns shoot to the point of aim for everybody with the "Out of the Box" sight settings...FWIW....mikey357

[Flexmoney]

- I have yet to see a glock that was really off.

- When I pick up a larger framed glock (G20), my hits group right.

- Yaw the strong hand grip so that it allows the trigger to break straight back into the frame

- ...

[Micah]

Spook, I laughed my ass off at that! Awsome

[Rotwang]

Tape a laser pointer to the gun so someone else can see what happens to the gun when you work the trigger. If the gun doesn't jump left then you are doing things right. If the gun jumps left then you need to work on trigger control.

[spook]

Went to the range yesterday. The results were interesting.

I started with about 30 shots freestyle. All went about 2" high and 3" left @ 2oyds.

Then I moved to weak hand shooting. 20 shots new target and they all went about 2" high and 3" left @20yds.

Did the same thing Strong hand, just for the record. Same story.

I ended up tapping the sight to the right and it pretty far off center (My guess would be almost 0.1").

Went back and it shoots slightly to the right (about 0.5" @20-25yds), so I'll have to readjust (the guy who had the brass punch left the range).

It raised some questions. I think everybody has a guy on the range that has his sights adjustd all the way up/down/left/right and tells you: "Yeah it's because of my eyes". I always thought that was BS, because your eyes make "one picture" where the sights and the target are alligned. Suppose your eyes are bad, and they move that picture up/down/left/right, then they will move the whole picture up/down/left/right.

Well, I have the feeling I am that guy now I have absolutely NO explanation for it.

All I'm thinking is: How the hell is that possible?!?! My buddy shoots it dead center and it didn't come from the factory with the barrel off center.

Edited October 18, 2007 by spook

[Skywalker]

Spook,

it's just a guess but .. here it goes.

The process of aiming involves objects on different focusing planes (i.e. at different distances).

You have the rear sight, which sits about 3ft from your eyes, then you have the front sight (about a span farther), then you have the target (at whatever distance it is).

There's one more degree of fredom in this equation, which is your arms reach, that influences the distance at which the whole set of rear+front sight sits beyond your eyes.

Having said that, it is my guess that a slight variation on the visual capacity of each eye might result in different POA for everybody.

I don't know if the spherical aberration or the refraction index of all eyes can differ that much.

Any optician in the house?

It would be interesting to know if the same sort of problem (gun shooting different POI for different guys) comes out with optic sighted guns, where the dot is on the same focusing plane of the target.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Skywalker

[spook]

Luca,

I am also analyzing that at the moment. I have noticed something that looks like birefringence when I focus on my sights. Even if I close one eye, I sometimes get double vision on my rear sight. I wonder if the fact that I wear shooting glasses with Rx inserts has anything to do with that.

I'd love to hear something on this subject from an optometrist.

[spook]

- Yaw the strong hand grip so that it allows the trigger to break straight back into the frame

I can't. If I yaw my strong hand so the index finger is square to the trigger I have no place to put my weak hand anymore.

Like I said, I have pretty large hands (and you know what they say about guys with large hands..... they wear big gloves)

[Skywalker]

I wonder if the fact that I wear shooting glasses with Rx inserts has anything to do with that.

It depends ... can you see through dresses?