HE MAN / HEAVY METAL / HM EQUIPMENT: RIFLE

[Religious Shooter]

I think there's too much variation in equipment rules for HM. I wanted to have these polls so (hopefully) the various MD's out there can have an idea on what "we" want in terms of equipment rules.

Of course anybody can vote. If you shoot HM… great. But if you don't or don't plan on shooting HM I'd like to make a request... vote as if you are going to shoot HM. Vote as if you are going to spend the money and you are the one that's going to take the time to shoot and prepare for HM.

It's awfully easy to say HM pistol should have a 200 PF minimum. That HM shotgun require full-power shotgun slugs out of a pump. Have 8 round limits for pistol, etc… when you aren't going to shoot HM. Pretend that it's your shoulder that's gonna get pummeled.

Rules:

DPMS: DPMS Tri Gun Challenge (2006)

PNW3G: R&R Racing Multigun Challenge 2007

USPSA

RM3G: Rocky Mountain 3 Gun 2007

SMM3G: Superstition Mountain 3 Gun 2007

FB: Fort Benning 2007

Thanks.

NOTE: The software only allows 3 questions so there are multiple polls on the subject. I've tried to limit the choices to what's currently being done between the different matches.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Religious Shooter

[Religious Shooter]

Just wanted clarify things...

Magazine and Round Limitation

Unrestricted Mag. 20+1 (USPSA, RM3G, SMM3G) [ 11 ] [37.93%]

Which was "translated" from the SMM3G rule:

6.6.3 Rifle magazines in HM shall not be loaded with more than twenty (20) rounds.

USPSA and RM3G have similar wording. This choice means you can use a 25 or a 30 round (i.e. unrestricted) magazine as long as you only load 20 rounds. This rule allows any current or future .308+ rifle that doesn't have a 20 round max capacity magazine to be legal in HM.

So for example the 7.62x51 Galil with it's 25 round magazines would be OK with the above wording of the rule.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as23-e.htm

=============

20 rd Max Mag Capacity. 20+1 (FB, PNW3G, DPMS) [ 18 ] [62.07%]

Quotation from the DPMS/FB rules (6.7.1.3 for PNW3G):

6.7.1.4 No magazine shall exceed a 20 round capacity.

By letter this choice only allows magazines that have a max capacity of 20 rounds.

With this rule you can't use a 25 or a 30 round mag even if you download it to 20.

If that Galil doesn't have a magazine that does not "exceed a 20 round capacity"... you can't use it in HM.

Clear as mud?

[kellyn]

IRON ONLY. I'm sure we will hear all about old eyes and how they need scopes. BS, I say. I shot highpower as a junior with lots of old fogeys who could hardly see and yet they mastered iron sights and they constantly kicked my teenaged ass and 16 year old eyes. Christ, I have terrible vision and won the Limited 3 gun Nationals!! So don't expect any sympathy here. BUT if we must have optics to satisfy all those who do not want to put in the time to learn to shoot irons then just have optic heavy metal division, DO NOT internally split the divisions a la SMM3G, that's the worst possible choice.

Power factors? I'm all for them as long as they're enforced. I figure the power factor ought to be based on a 147 grain ball load going thru a 16 inch barrel so 360 should be fine. If we don't HAVE power factors then wienies like myself will be shooting a lot of 110-125 grain bullets. If we don't ENFORCE them then we'll have a bunch of cheaters shooting 110 grainers.

Mag capacity. Total bias here as the FAL has good 30s available but I'm ok with a cap at 20. I'm ok with over 20 round mags downloaded to 20.

I thought Heavy Metal/ He Man was about putting the POWER back into the accuracy, speed and power calculation. I'm also for making the divisions distinct (otherwise why have them?). So bring on your full power slugs, increased power factors, 8 round pistol mag capacity, iron sights only, and pump shotguns. To me that's what's makes heavy metal/ he man both fun and distinct. But until these rules make sense count me out.

[Heavy Metal Only]

+100 % You pretty much said it all.

[TRUBL]

The whole thing about PF is kind of a pain.....however, not having it will cause gaming.

But I believe there is a PRACTICAL way around it

Yep.....when I shot heavy metal, I used 110 grain 308's, 160 grain 45's, and light target loads for the pump.

Pretty easy to NOT impliment a PF and still have people make major......IE:

Mandate 150grain bullets (min) for 308......UHmmmm....if I want any down range power, I will be going 2600fps min or have a trajectory like a rainbow

Mandate 230grain bullets (min) for 45acp......ever shoot that big of a bullet at minor (543 fps)? Your pistol feels slow.....I'd shoot them pretty darn close to, if not over major power factor.

Mandate Field loads for shotgun and full power slugs (no reloads)

No chrono required......just measure the weight of the bullets, and note the high base brass on the shotshells (note: reduced recoil slugs state on the hull that they are just that)......all you need to do is strip a round off a competitors mag at any time and go measure it.....you could even do it at a stage.

That being said.....USPSA will chrono anyways, as the scoring much requires it. IMGA, wouldn't really need to.

Edited August 9, 2007 by TRUBL

[Heavy Metal Only]

When your shooting 400 yard shots, You'll want high power.

[hopalong]

How about M1A 's ONLY and let all the other wanna be rifles play in Limited !!!

Just JOKING so don't flame me too bad................

HOP

[Heavy Metal Only]

How about M1A 's ONLY and let all the other wanna be rifles play in Limited !!!

Just JOKING so don't flame me too bad...............

HOP

As long as its a .308 w/ a 20 round mag and iron sight ONLY, The brand doesnt matter. I use an AR10 Amilite A4. Its nice. The 223 rifles are great too, but unless you are good enough to lobe a round 400 yards, A .308 has no problem even in the wind.

[Religious Shooter]

Bump. In light of the new USPSA rules on HM...

Please vote if you haven't already. Thanks.

[bigsaxdog]

this poll is an excellent idea! too bad i didn't think of it......kinda goes back to the uspsa taking over 3-gun thread, if you look at the results of the poll. everybody wants to shoot their downloaded .40 limited guns(L-10 is for pooftahs), they want to load huge mags in mouse-fart .308 loads, and stick huge tubes on their shotguns, and shoot autos too. don't even get me started on optics. that last kyle lamb match a couple of years ago was the best, no BS! we need match directors w/ some cojones to make hardcore rules, not some politicos kowtowing to the uspsa crowd.....

[Religious Shooter]

Man I don't know where you are getting those figures from!

BTW the Czar of Three Gun Rules is a USPSA turn-coat. He used to sort of run (he has juice) a USPSA based 3 gun match that was scored Comstock (non-SA method). Now that match has recentlly converted to IMGA based rules.

... so since he started that thread and he went to the IMGA rules... it's the "outlaws" that are trying to take over 3 Gun. Not USPSA shooters.

[caspian guy]

Who cares what the bullet diameter is... If I want to shoot a .260 rem, a 6.5 Grendel or a 6.8 spc or something else what does it matter. As long as the thing makes 320pf whats the difference?

Peter Adams

FY-39604

[Brian Payne]

What is the big pissing contest about. Who really cares about whose rules we are following, or whose rules are better or worse, or if there is a Czar of Three Gun Rules.

Just pick the weapons that will work in every match (12ga. pump, .308 semi-auto rifle, 1911 .45). You can plug a longer shotgun tube, get bigger .45 or .308 mags, and if you are so inclined you can get different ammo to match the rules of your chosen match. You can even stick a scope on your rifle at some matches if you want. But you don't need to.

This "need" to have a certain set of rules is enough to make me puke. RS it seems you are making this a lot bigger than it needs to be. Read the rules ahead of time. If you don't have the weapons or equipment that works perfectly for the match, get what you need or get to shooting a different match. There is enough of them out there. All this equipment whining does not belong here. He-Man shooters aren't suppose to be whiners, they are suppose to be.....well......HE-MEN!

The more rules stuck in a sport, the less enjoyable it becomes.

[TRUBL]

This contest gonna be for distance?? Accuracy?? or both???

Bottom line......He-Man has become THE most single bastardized division in 3 gun. SOOOO....someone said, let the shooters decide. I think alot of shooters decided to shoot other divisions. I've seen He-man, not grow.....but shrink. Am I wrong??

[Brian Payne]

Tim,

I agree with you. I just think to have one standardized set of rules is not the right way to go.

Example: Last years DPMS Tri-Gun Challenge.

In '07 there were 26 HM competitors and 11 Tac Ops Heavy. In '06 I think there were about 23 HM shooters. A small increase for '07, but the ability to have another division using heavy rifle with scope got 11 more shooters going.

I just think the MD's should have their own options as to the rules and scoring. If they are too far off base the shooters will let them know by not showing up for the shoot, or not shooting in that division. As for the shooters themselves, if they outfit themselves with the "basic" HM weapons ie: 12ga pump, .308 semi-auto, .45 1911, you can fit into any match with any rules. You may not be set up to be the ultimate gamer but most of the shooters out there aren't really interested in that anyway.

[J-Ho]

Man I don't know where you are getting those figures from!

BTW the Czar of Three Gun Rules is a USPSA turn-coat. He used to sort of run (he has juice) a USPSA based 3 gun match that was scored Comstock (non-SA method). Now that match has recentlly converted to IMGA based rules.

... so since he started that thread and he went to the IMGA rules... it's the "outlaws" that are trying to take over 3 Gun. Not USPSA shooters.

ROFL, sorry but that's kinda funny. Remember, there is power in the dark side.

As to your poll. I like .308 or larger, 20 rnds IRON sight. Beyond that I'm not too concerned. Light loads will suck at any kind of distance, so If someone wants to game, they'll get screwed. Remember though, that's just what I like, NOT what I think should be standard.