Lefty; thumb blocking ejection port?

[Duane Thomas]

A cartridge with enough pressure would not be capable of beginning to extract out of the chamber.

Of course it would. What causes the cartridge casing to extract is an "equal and opposite" reaction inertia effect. The bullet goes one way, forward, the cartridge goes the exact opposite, rearward. That's what causes the casing to come out of the chamber, not the extractor. The extractor, despite the name, does not exist primarily to "pull" the casing out of the chamber. It's there to prevent a "croquet ball" effect where the casing pops the slide, then bounces and "floats' off the breech face, and to provide a pivot point for the casing to go around as it's getting kicked out the ejection port.

As the cartridge is sitting in the chamber it's (in the overall scheme of things) a loose fit. As the cartridge is fired, pressure inside the casing causes it to obturate (expand and seal off) the chamber, preventing backward gas flow. However this amount of pressure is not sufficient to stop the casing from extracting.

You also can't have the gun cycle fast enough so the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up.

I make my living writing about guns, thus I've gotten to discuss this matter with firearms engineers. An auto pistol slide can cycle in a few hundredths of a second.

I think you may have misunderstood whom ever you overheard talking about this.

I'm not basing my observations on what the gun does in recoil on overhearing someone talking about this. I'm basing it on keeping my eyes open and watching what the front sight does.

[EmanP]

Actually I can't really take credit for it. It's an old piece of knowledge, and comes from the same concept that makes lighter-than-stock recoil springs so popular among competition shooters. The more energy is required to overcome the recoil spring as the slide rockets rearward, the more energy gets passed on to you, therefore the more felt recoil and muzzle flip you have. On a gun that has a hammer spring (i.e. mainspring) as well as a recoil spring (1911, SIG, CZ, etc.) the weight of the mainspring also comes into play. Like I said, this is old knowledge, I didn't come up with it myself.

Of course, then we get into just how important is it to you that a gun have "soft" recoil, which is what lowering the weight of the recoil spring and mainspring does. For a long time I was an adherent of the "heavy bullet/light recoil spring/soft recoil" school of thought. Then I realized that for me how the gun tracked in recoil, and what it did when it came down out of recoil, was more important than how "soft" the recoil might be. These days in my Glock 34 I've actually gone to a stock equivalent 17-pound recoil spring instead of the 13-pounder I used to run, specifically to get the gun cycling faster. In a 1911, on the other hand, I still like the 17-pound mainspring (stock is 23 pounds), also to get the gun cycling faster.

Whether a shooter likes a gun with "slow, pushy" recoil or "fast, snappy" recoil is very much an individual thing. But there's no doubt that recoil spring weight, and mainspring weight, do affect how a gun cycles, and feels, and tracks.

Just to make things clear, the reasons for a lighter mainspring is really to help lighten the trigger. True, the slide does need to overcome the MS in that it needs to overcome the hammer/MS in it's rearward movement while reset the mechanism. But that's an insignificant factor in the perceived recoil of the firearm. Again, I think you may have misunderstood whom ever you overheard talking about this. What you're referring to above is mainly about recoil spring weight.

Edited August 17, 2007 by EmanP

[Duane Thomas]

Just to make things clear, the reasons for a lighter mainspring is really to help lighten the trigger.

That's part of it. I've known Master class IPSC shooters who said they thought the mainspring had more effect on how the gun recoiled and tracked than the recoil spring.

True, the slide does need to overcome the MS in that it needs to overcome the hammer/MS in it's rearward movement while reset the mechanism. But that's an insignificant factor in the perceived recoil of the firearm.

I guess it depends on your definition of "insignificant" and at what level you want, and are capable, of firing the gun. When you hit a certain point, everything matters.

[EmanP]

When you hit a certain point, everything matters.

And then nothing matters. Let's get back to Rick's topic here.

Rick, I have some ammo I can put into it. I'll shoot it left handed for a 100rds or so thumbs forward and then for another 100+ with my thumbs in the way to see if we can recreate the problem. You watch and see if you can find the problem.

[RickB]

When you hit a certain point, everything matters.

And then nothing matters. Let's get back to Rick's topic here.

Rick, I have some ammo I can put into it. I'll shoot it left handed for a 100rds or so thumbs forward and then for another 100+ with my thumbs in the way to see if we can recreate the problem. You watch and see if you can find the problem.

Wow, almost nothing for a couple of weeks, and BOOM, a really nice, somewhat-heated debate. Anyway, I'm going to put 150 rounds through it tomorrow, and we'll see if, A, I hit anything, and B, if the gun runs.

[Duane Thomas]

And then nothing matters.

Exactly! That's when you leave the realm of the mechanical and move into the realm of the mental, which is what really matters. Matches are not, generally, won by the guy with the best equipment, but the better mental game. Though the best shooters will, of course, have their equipment all sorted out, the only reason we do that is so we can then forget about it, and focus on what's really important.

The mental game. Now there's a topic worthy of discussion. But it's just damn hard to find people to discuss it with, because it requires a level of performance not many people visit.

BTW, just figured out that EManP has to be a fellow IDPA club member, the first guy at my IDPA club to achieve an SSP Master rating. Despite the fact we may disagree on some things, I want to make it very clear I respect his shooting ability. This is a guy worth listening to, gang.

[EmanP]

Duane, I'm sure I wasn't the first and got it on a technicality by only a few hundredths of a second. Doesn't really count as far as I'm concerned and doesn't mean anything. How many times have we seen lesser rated shooters do better than higher rated shooters. Also depends on the game that you play. The whole rating system is flawed but that is another discussion in and of itself. Hell, Rick could kick my butt 3 ways to Sunday and most of the time I need to try real hard to keep from letting Husky whip me. I'd listen to Rick long before I listened to me.

[Duane Thomas]

Duane, I'm sure I wasn't the first and got it on a technicality by only a few hundredths of a second.

"Technicality"? Boy, that's got me curious. I thought you'd gotten your Master rank at that classifier match, and you made it there by seconds, not fractions. I missed that match, and I hated that. I would have loved to watch you do that. Was that the second time you posted a Master score at the club? In any event, I think doing that one on demand, under match pressure, is darn impressive.

I've been thinking lately: just how many Masters are there in NWPPA (the Northwest Practical Pistol Association)? I know in CDP there's Sandy Wylie, who got it through being the first-ever CDP State Champion back in, if memory serves me correctly, 1998. Thereafter, Sandy carried the Master torch in Washington state IDPA alone for a long time. There's Bobby McGee in ESP, who I think was the first guy to get it through shooting the classifier. In SSP there's you, me and Darrion Holiwell. That's it, right? Though I would be immensely surprised if mattk doesn't make it in the near future. I don't think Tom Dean has made it yet - I could stand to be corrected on that - only because he shoots the classifier, like, once a year. With a USPSA Grand Master level of skill, there's no reason on God's green Earth he shouldn't be an IDPA Master.

[HuskySig]

Don't let EP fool you. He's shot the IDPA on two different occasions achieving a Master time. He's also being far too humble. My money is on him for tomorrow's state match. He's shooting like a man of fire recently.

TomD is a Master in CDP, according to past match results. I think Sandy is a Master in both CDP and ESP.

I'm no where close to achieving Master.

mattk

[Duane Thomas]

My money is on him for tomorrow's state match.

Well, we'll see about that. But if I didn't think I could win, why even show up? In any event, it's going to be an immensely fun match, with that level of competition.

[Duane Thomas]

Maybe we should ask Rick how many Masters there are in NWPPA. Rick knows everything.

[SteveZ]

TomD is a Master in CDP, according to past match results. I think Sandy is a Master in both CDP and ESP.

I'm no where close to achieving Master.

mattk

TDean is a Master...I was there when he did it in CDP.... made it look like a walk in the park.

Matt's a Master.... Emanuel is a BasT@r0

Edited August 18, 2007 by SteveZ

[RickB]

TomD is a Master in CDP, according to past match results. I think Sandy is a Master in both CDP and ESP.

I'm no where close to achieving Master.

mattk

TDean is a Master...I was there when he did it in CDP.... made it look like a walk in the park.

Matt's a Master.... Emanuel is a BasT@r0

So, did anyone see an ejected case hit my thumb, on Friday?????

To address the various side topics developing here. I think the home-grown Masters, who got their classifications shooting a Classifier Match, include EmanP, TV Dean, and Bobby, in addition to Duane.

Eman definitely showed us the way around the state championship, on Saturday. He shaded everyone, including the other four Masters, by more than 20 seconds.

Edited August 19, 2007 by RickB

[Duane Thomas]

I asked Sandy on Saturday, and he verified that he is indeed a Master in CDP and ESP. That means he shot the classifier into ESP Master, right?

But then, what do I know? After knowing Jon Stein for, like, 10-plus years, this weekend I found out for the first time he was Airborne qualified, circa 1976. (1983 for moi.) Ah, the important things we don't know about others....

[RickB]

Close call:

[HuskySig]

Close call:

I think we can safely blame that one on the pink hat...

mattk

[RickB]

Close call:

I think we can safely blame that one on the pink hat...

mattk

Dusty rose, Matt, dusty rose . . .

[baa]

I am not qualified to debate the theories discussed here but I can verify that I, a lefty shooting a limited gun with a light recoil spring (12#) has experienced brass impacting my thumb. I have a nice cut on the first joint of my left thumb where the brass smacked it a couple times during a match. I was messing around and put a 11 # spring in the gun it the impact to my thumb increased. I am going to continue experimenting with recoil springs and the ejector until it stops hitting my thumb. Its not causing mechanical issues so much as hurting me a lot Though I suppose the drops of blood sprained across my hand and slide are sort of manly.

[Duane Thomas]

Close call:

Yeah, that casing is coming pretty darn close to your thumb. And now you have the photographic proof. Only one thing to do: learn to shoot right-handed.

Dusty rose, Matt, dusty rose . . .

I was thinking "pale scarlet", myself. Which looks amazingly like pink....

[showpro]

Close call:

I think we can safely blame that one on the pink hat...

mattk

Dusty rose, Matt, dusty rose . . .

Oh, like THAT's an improvement.

[HuskySig]

Close call:

I think we can safely blame that one on the pink hat...

Dusty rose, Matt, dusty rose . . .

Whatever makes you guys feel comfortable wearing pink hats!

mattk

[J.L. Hardy]

I have several leftys that I have built open guns for and with the small window of opportunity to eject between the bottom of the c-more and the left thumb it is very challenging to get everything tuned just right and any change in power factor or spring rates, either the recoil spring or the hammer spring, effects ejection. From what I see in your picture you shoot non-open guns and it appears that you could adjust the ejector nose angle slightly to eject the brass up instead of to the side and cure your problem. Some of the guys I work with do get the nicks and powder residue on the thumb and a couple of others never notice it, but as I am watching them I can see their thumb start to straighten up as they shoot. In practice when they are thinking about keeping the thumb down there is no problem but in the heat of the moment, when they are concentrating on engaging the targets, that thumb starts sticking up. I have even offered to trim the first joint or so off for them. Another thing that helps is a shielded thumb safety like a swenson that has the shield trimmed so that it is slightly below the ejection port when the slide is back, it will give you something to rest your thumb on and applying pressure to the thumb shield will actuall help with recoil control. If you do so without the thumbshields, you end up riding the slide and causing the type malfunctions you describe as well.