3 Handed Reloading???

[kurtm]

I will start with a quote from Patrick Sweeney's article in Front Sight magazine ( March/April 2003)

"To do all this you must remove the rifle from your shoulder. No one is dextrous and limber enogh to do it otherwise, and even if you are good enough to make the Cirque de Soleil, you can't do it fast."

Pat is talking about mag changes with M1As, AKs, and Mini 14s. I developed a way to do this about 25 years ago. Not only can it be EASILY done from the shoulder ( or in any position), it can be done in 1 1/2 -2 seconds from shot to shot. At the time it was taught to the 22nd AMU but has since been lost even to them. I only know 5 guys that use this method but all seem to be real slick with it (hey Kelly they are all from Colorado also, another Coloodity... kind of like weak hand shotgun loading). I use to keep this technique real close to the chest as I campained a M1A in 3 gun for many years, but as of late with the way "Caliban" has become, and so many people "stuck" with these types of mag retention systems it is time to reintroduce it, but for gods sake don't call it the Kurt method!!!

Start with the rifle at your shoulder with empty mag locked in place. Grab your full mag so that it sits in your weak hand about 1/2 way up, bullets up and forward. Have your weak hand thumb sticking straight out to the side!!! ( big key here .... your thumb should be pointing at the side of the rifle and the mag held verticaly by your 4 fingers and back of your palm). Push the release lever with your thumb forward very forcefully ( you are kind of raking past the release lever and triing to slide your thumb forward and down the back of the empty mag body a little ways). you will find that this action will EJECT the spent mag with enough force to send it 10-15 feet forward. Now is the cool part!!! your hand that is holding the full mag is now rotated from the push you gave the old mag so that it is now at the perfect angle to start the front of the mag into the mag well and then rock to the back to lock. I will try to get a little video of this posted so you can see it done. Don't try to over think this, just kind of follow along and try it, I think you will like it. KURT

[Overkill]

That sounds like it just might work. Have to dry practice this evening. Thanks!

[PacMan]

The Millers taught me this awhile back for AK mag change, and I tell you, it is super fast. Since Kurt already let the "Colorado secret" out, might as well spill the entire thing...pitch that muzzle downward a little bit, and the AK mag would nicely rotate down and out of the way. I applied this method to the L1A1, and works even better since I carry these 308 mags down with bullet facing the backside, similar to my AR mags. The whole thing is a smooth upward rotation from magazine draw, release, and rock back in.

What's AMU stands for?

[kurtm]

Pacman:

Advanced Marksmanship Unit.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'll admit it is a slick method for getting a fast reload into an AK or other rifle. And one I had forgotten about, since it has been about ten years since I shot an AK in an IPSC match. However, it is still a compromise. Compare it to a handgun reload:

On the reload, you grab the spare, then bring it to the gun, and while pressing the mag button, strip the old mag out before inserting the new. Would anyone put up with a pistol that required it? As a means of dealing with a malfunction, it is great, but as a standard operating method, it is definitely a loser.

So, on a rifle, given the choice between one that has drop free mags and one that doesn't, which is preferred? We measure stages and matches by fractions of seconds, and a clumsier reload hurts. Until something much, much better comes along, I think the AR platform will be on top.

That said, I would like a more robust cartridge in the AR. I just heard that something called the "6.8x45" is being considered. I wonder if it wilol make Major, or come close enoguh to allow Major to be re-defined. We've adjusted handgun Major/Minor, why not rifle?

[PacMan]

I believe the AK, FAL, M14 mags are "drop free", and you don't need to "strip" the mag out. These weapons were designed with a cam/rock in magazine insertion mechanism instead of a straight insertion like the AR, but their magazines do drop out without the need to touch them, unlike the non-drop-free pistol magazine design of the first generation Glock mags. Ergonomically, the AR design is still one of the best in the world. The AR's real advantage comes from a softer shooting cartridge therefore quicker shot to shot split times. For the purpose of this post, I don't believe anyone ever stated that the above guns are any better than the AR, only another trick in the bag to help with reloading for the fellows who like to use them.

[kurtm]

Pat:

First off I wasn't picking on you or your article. I was making information available to those people that are stuck with this type of system like Minis in California. I wanted them to know that all was not gloom as was indicated in your article.

Secondly as Pacman so aptly pointed out you don't have to strip the mag out, this is done when you hit the release so therefore a non sequitor! Yep 3-gun is measured in hundreths of a second and I would like to remind people that more than a few such matches have been won overall by someone using oneof these types of guns and mag retention systems. At 1.5-2 seconds to change magazines someone with an AR better not be half stepping as this is right in the range of a fairly fast AR change!! But then when does anyone do a static reload if it can be helped.

Thirdly, If you don't really think there is much difference between a carbine caliber such as .223 or even 6.8x45 and a rifle caliber such as say 308 except just a few numbers, may I suggest that you take your .223 for your next Elk hunt.

All life is a trade off and I never said the mags changed as "easy" as an AR, I just said it CAN be done from the shoulder AND it can be done very fast!! Don't let the mag retention system be a deciding factor in the quest for a 3-gun carbine or rifle if the rest of the system meets your needs. KURT

[Patrick Sweeney]

Yes, the FAL/M-14/AK mags drop free when the lever is pushed, but that has to be done with the off hand, not the firing hand as the off hand reaches for the next mag. For the poor guys stuck with non-ARs due to political reasons, then the method you described is the best.

As for rifle Major, I suspect that the threshold was set as a level that the .308/.30-06 could easily reach, and the 7.62x39 and the rest could not. Does it accurately reflect power/performance? Does the scoring reflect the PF?

Would I use a .308 on an Elk hunt? Maybe, but not with a lot of enthusiasm. Would I use a .223? Ony if the reason I was after Elk was the plane had crashed and I couldn't lure anything else closer. And none of that is relevant to competition.

If the current Major PF is 345 (is that right? or do I need more coffee?) and a new 6.8x45 can post a (just posting a theoretical number) 310-320, perhaps we might have to re-think Major/Minor in rifle. That's all.

[kurtm]

Pat:

I see where you are comming from. Major as it was set is equivalent to a 30-30 with a 150gr bullet. That is just a marginally better than a 7.62x39, I kind of agree that major FOR COMPETITION should start about at 7.62x39. After all an SKS is kind of like a semi auto 30-30. If the 6.8x45 or 6.5x45 can make it so much the better. I also agree that FOR COMPETITION, the major floor was set kind of high for the value recieved for major hits! The value should have been higher, OR the floor lower!! At the time it was set however, they didn't have wealth of cartriges that are almost there that we do today.

I do enthusiasticaly use 308 for Elk, but then I also load shotgun weak handed and am from Colorado, and as Kelly has pointed out that is an oddity as the rest of the world does it different! To many people have forgotten what real major rifles can do, and I feel it bears reminding in real world terms sometimes. Sorry just one of my soap boxes. KURT

[Flexmoney]

Patrick & Kurt,

Interesting...sounds like you are both in agreement on that the power factor for the games could stand a review.

Flexibility and open thought is good.

[kurtm]

fLEX$:

I have always felt two minor rifle hits equaled one major rifle hit (read this argument to mean 223/308). One 308 A zone hit ought to equal two 223 A zone hits, not just a point or two. I ALWAYS thought that doubling a target with 308 was ludicrus just as it is for slugs of either 20 or 12 gage as long as it is a good A zone hit!!! I must include the 7.62x39 in the same catagory. One well centered hit and that about does it ( not true the over rated varmint cartridge although even it does the job about 75% of the time). I think the major power floor ought to be around the 7.62x39 range. The Mule deer I have seen and heard about being shot with this cartridge sure seem to think its major! KURT

[Patrick Sweeney]

We should regularly question our assumptions. Not that you shold wake up every monring and wonder "is Major/Minor scored properly" but you should occasionally question everything, just for the exercise.

Hey, even Newton was proved wrong some of the time.

[PacMan]

Kurt, if one hit of 308 = (2) of 5.56, and if we only require to engage our targets once for those with 308, I believe we would see more of 308's at our matches. I certainly would bring the L1A1 out.

[Overkill]

AMEN,

A 308 double tap to the A zone is absurd!

Someone e-mail the rules committe.

[Carlos]

I agree that a rule change to bring out a greater variety of rifles would be an overall improvement to our sport. To that end, how can we encourage folks to shoot major?

I would also like to see more emphasis on long range stages (200 to 300 meters) to encourage high velocity rifles ONLY. While I enjoy close range hosing as much as the next guy, and even built a 9mm AR-15 carbine for local USPSA (sorta like the MecTec on the cover of frontsite), I'd like the regular challenge of 300 yard targets. As it is here in Area 8, the longest shot I've taken in competition was 140 yards.

[PacMan]

Let's campaign for this change, even at local club level. I'll start another post on this subject since we sorta hi jacked Kurt's post about rifle loading.

[Correia]

Hate to bring this old topic up, but this might help somebody.

I don't care for ARs much, so as I've gotten into 3 gunning I've used an FAL or a Vepr.

Here is how I do it, I've got my static AK reload down under 2 seconds now and the FAL reload under 1.5. I've been using the AK more lately though because a $75 a case, you can do a lot of practicing.

I shoot using the magazine as a vertical fore grip. Fingers around the front of the mag, thumb flat against the mag body. To reload, keep the rifle at the shoulder, but dip the muzzle forward. In one motion, move your thumb onto the mag release and sweep it as you bring your hand down and off of the magazine. This works better with the AK, but also works well if you have an Inch L1a1 style release.

The mag will drop free on its own while you are in the process of grabbing your new mag.

If you have gorilla fingers, you can use your trigger finger to hit a metric mag release. That is a bit faster.

The FAL rocks in faster than the AK as the mag well is more open.

[Matt]

"Yes, the FAL/M-14/AK mags drop free when the lever is pushed, but that has to be done with the off hand, not the firing hand as the off hand reaches for the next mag. "

As Correia stated above - the FAL (don't know about the others) mag release can be easily activated by the trigger finger, without removing it from the pistol grip or changing you firing position. I don't know that I agree about the "gorrilla fingers" comment, though - I'm only 5'7" and have no problem making it work.

My reload with the FAL goes like this:

1. Reach for mag with weak hand (I wear mine with rounds down and facing backwards).

2. As weak hand is bringing new mag up, hit the mag release with the trigger finger.

3. Empty mag falls forward and out (drop free) as the new mag is soming in - they should pass each other in mid-air (well, sort of).

4. New mag gets rocked into place, and weak hand yanks the charging handle back to load (I don't like to rely on hitting the bolt hold open - besides, it's easier to hit the CH than the little BHO button).

All that can happen with the rifle still in my shoulder (or any shooting position except prone - then I have to roll a little bit). Of course that may have something to do with all of the weight I've shaved off my FAL carbine........

"I don't care for ARs much"

I think that's the quote of the day!

[Matt]

I forgot - I love the idea of further dividing the rifle categories. The last 3-gun I shot required THREE hits on targets to neutralize with a rifle?!?!?!?! Three hits to the a-zone with a .308 - what a-zone? There's nothing left to hit...........

I've been to only one match that made the 1 .308 = 2 .223 hits, and honestly I think I het everything twice anyway just because I was so used to doing it. I did notice that that match I saw more .308's than I've ever seen at a match before........

[rhino]

Out past 100 yards or so, I can see the argument that one .308 = two .223 hits . . .

But up close? For CQB-style stages, I don't buy it, given all we know about terminal ballistics of the .223.

[kurtm]

Rhino:

Oh yea, even up close....A nice 150 grain plastic tiped bullet is a thing of beauty!! Much bigger hole in and Gigantic out.....much more better in my humble opinion. KURT

[isto]

I agree with Matt. I can release the mag from my AK-variant (Sako M92S) with the trigger finger. The release lever is even extended to make it easier. I can do the same with my other rifle, SIG551, which has a similar mag release lever. The reload is quite fast, even though I just have started to practice this magchance technique. The problem with light weight plastic mags I use is that they do not fall off as easily/fast as iron-AK mags.

Isto

[Mickster]

The slickest reload I've ever seen was on a Mini-14.

The fellow had taped two 30 round mags together so when one was in the gun the other was facing down. For the reload he grabbed the mag and then hit the mag release with his left thumb, flipped the mag in mid air, grabbed and snicked it right back in. Kept on shooting and never missed a beat.

He now knows what it's like to get a standing ovation while still shooting in the middle of a stage?