Reloading Help

[JohnSchuler]

I am trying to work up a load for some new bullets that I just got for my 4" model 625.

45ACP - .451 diameter

230 grn.

Round nose

Hard cast lead

Federal cases

I'm having a problem with these bullets gunking up the chambers, and not letting the rounds drop all of the way in. If I clean the chambers with a bore snake, I can get the first 1 or 2 clips to drop in, but then start having a problem with them seating all of the way.

Has anyone experienced this? I bought 5000 of these, and need to get them to work out for me. They have no brand name on the boxes, but I can probably call the place I bought them to find out who made them.

I've rubbed the ends with steel wool lightly, and this seems to help a little. It de-burrs, and de-gunks the end of the bullet somewhat. I've tightened the crimp a little (from 473 to 472) and this has also helped. I will continue to experiment with these things, but was hoping somebody has a nice fix for this before I get too bad of a headache from banging my head into the wall.

Thanks all, in advance.

John

[hopalong]

John,

Use Hogden Clays for your powder, it burns cleanest (for the money) and leaves no residue. Most of the time it is burn powder residue that causes your problem.

Clays and 45 ACP just go together, kind of like ice cream and pecan pie..............

That should take care of the biggest part of your problem, lead bullets leave residue too but it takes a while to build up compared to the powder residue.

Good luck.

Hop

[Bob McGee]

I am trying to work up a load for some new bullets that I just got for my 4" model 625.

45ACP - .451 diameter

230 grn.

Round nose

Hard cast lead

Federal cases

I'm having a problem with these bullets gunking up the chambers, and not letting the rounds drop all of the way in. If I clean the chambers with a bore snake, I can get the first 1 or 2 clips to drop in, but then start having a problem with them seating all of the way.

Has anyone experienced this? I bought 5000 of these, and need to get them to work out for me. They have no brand name on the boxes, but I can probably call the place I bought them to find out who made them.

I've rubbed the ends with steel wool lightly, and this seems to help a little. It de-burrs, and de-gunks the end of the bullet somewhat. I've tightened the crimp a little (from 473 to 472) and this has also helped. I will continue to experiment with these things, but was hoping somebody has a nice fix for this before I get too bad of a headache from banging my head into the wall.

Thanks all, in advance.

John

John,

The information that you left out of your post, just could be the problem. That is, what powder and how hot of a load are you trying to shoot? If you are shooting Titegroup or WW231 in powder puff loads, And probable most other powders, you will run into this problem. The light loads just don't burn with enough heat to keep the chambers clean. With a hot load both WW231 and Titegroup will burn super clean, however if you like the softer shooting loads then try going back to the old stand by "Bulls Eye" and you will never have to worry about cleaning chambers again. I know that a lot of people say Bullseye burns dirty, but I find the sut generated by Bullseye burns completely out of the cylinder. One other point, that some will disagree with, is that you will probably find that lead bullets will be a little slower and less reliable on the reload, for that reason I use lead for practice but shoot Berry's double struck plated for matches.

[Tom E]

I ended up reaming the chambers on my 625-8. As delivered they were undersize and some were as much as .0035" out of round. They were however very consistent for depth. A finish chamber reamer made it lots less fussy. As others have said, clean burning powder, plated or coated or jacketed bullets, loading hot enough to get the cases to swell enough to seal and a Lee carbide factory crimp die will all help. Tom

Edited June 29, 2007 by Tom E

[JohnSchuler]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Powder is Alliant bullseye

4.1 grns (720-740fps) 165-170 PF

This load worked great (and clean) for my previous bullets without fouling.

Previous bullets were coated lead 230 rn from precisionbullet.com "black bullets"

[Jaxshooter]

The bullets may have a bunch of lube on them also. I load 45 with Clays or VV N-320 and they both burn very clean. I don't shoot lead bullets though.

[revchuck]

John - You might want to try tightening the crimp a little more. Most folks I know use .470 - .471. Some go as far as .468, but I think that's too much of a good thing.

[dgsmith]

I agree with the use of clays. I was a 231 man for 20 years. Last year I chased the same proplem you have for three months. Clays did work better. But the cure was the same as Tom E I ran a reamer into cylinder on one was a out of spec. the reamer was cutting metal half way down chamber. Have not had a problen since. (Well at least that problem was gone. Many more creep up)

[Tom E]

I just bought a case of Precision Bullets "black bullets". I'm impressed. Absolutely minimal lead/lube fouling, great accuracy. No way I'm going back to regular cast/lubed lead. Tom

FWIW my choice of powder is WST.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Tom E

[Gregg K]

I've tightened the crimp a little (from 473 to 472) and this has also helped.

I don't understand how you are getting .473". All my cases with a bullet inserted measure .470" with no crimp. I measured several brands of factory ammo and they measure .470". To get anything larger than .470" I would have to leave some of the bell at the end of the case and have no crimp. I load all mine to measure .470" in the body just below the crimp and .468" at the very edge of the mouth of the case. Most of the cases that I have measure .0095" thick, that would make for a finished cartridge of .470" with no crimp, .451 + .0095 + .0095 = .470" any thing larger than .470 is not crimping the bullet.

[JohnSchuler]

Thanks a lot for the insights. I am going to look into a reamer.

As far as the crimp being .473 Gregg, I was trying to have the lightest crimp possible, and still hold the bullet in place. I can drop the cartridge, nose down on the bench, and it doesn't move. I will definitely keep turning the screw down to see what I come up with as far as speed and pressures go, perhaps it will help expand the case out to the chamber and cut back on the fouling as well.

Thanks all.

[Tom E]

Before you buy a chamber reamer measure your chambers. If they're .4790 or bigger very close to the cyl. face (check for out of round too) I wouldn't spend the bucks for the reamer. Some of mine were .4760, and .0035 out of round. Those justify a reamer. I second Gregg's .468 taper crimp dia. My brass had all been shot in a 1911 and many cases measured .476 just above the extractor groove after normal resizing. .476 cases don't drop into .476 chambers. Many sizing dies just don't size the case in this area. Lee's carbide factory crimp die does. It will make your loaded rounds no bigger than .472 even at the groove. Good luck, Tom

[Bob McGee]

Before you buy a chamber reamer measure your chambers. If they're .4790 or bigger very close to the cyl. face (check for out of round too) I wouldn't spend the bucks for the reamer. Some of mine were .4760, and .0035 out of round. Those justify a reamer. I second Gregg's .468 taper crimp dia. My brass had all been shot in a 1911 and many cases measured .476 just above the extractor groove after normal resizing. .476 cases don't drop into .476 chambers. Many sizing dies just don't size the case in this area. Lee's carbide factory crimp die does. It will make your loaded rounds no bigger than .472 even at the groove. Good luck, Tom

Tom's last comment brings up an other problem, I learned a long time ago that picking up range brass was was just inviting problems. Brass fired out of Glocks seem to be a real problem in my 625.

[JohnSchuler]

Thanks, again.

I will try the Lee die.

[Carmoney]

OK, it's now confirmed--there is a batch of tight cylinders out there that slipped through QC on a run of newer-production 625-8s.

I just finished using the Clymer finish reamer to bring a friend's 625-8 up to spec, so I am now 100% sure about this. I was very surprised at how undersized the chambers were on this gun.

Before I reamed the chambers this gun would only work with factory ammo and certain types of handloads, but most handloads were sticky--even handloads that work great in both of my older 625s. Now every moonclip drops in perfectly.

Other than that awful first year of production back in 1988, 625s are not known to be finicky or sticky. It's almost like they found a boxful of 625-2 cylinders in the back room and decided they shouldn't go to waste......

[MichiganShootist]

The cylinders on my 625 were so tight I couldn't use ANY reloads... regardless of crimp... and I was using a full length sizing die.

I shipped the gun to S & W.. they returned it after firing 2 factory rounds through the gun... with a note suggesting I only use factory ammo.

Wow wasn't that helpful????

I reamed my cylinders and had no further problems.

[JohnSchuler]

If I get a clymer finish reamer, what is the process for doing this? Can I hurt the cylinder, and make it useless? Any help here would definitely be appreciated before I jump into something like that.

Thanks

[vrmn1]

Yes you can ruin your cylinder in a heart beat. That would be the last thing I would try.

I would try bumping your powder charge a little to burn all of the powder/lube residue and increase the crimp tension. This may increase the velocity and recoil a tiny amount but then you almost didn't make major at Georgia State so you may need to do this anyway.

I shoot my hand cast bullets almost exclusively in my 625s without any problem.

Again reaming ANYTHING on the gun would be the last thing to try.

[Carmoney]

John, you need the finish reamer (make sure it's the one for cylinder chambers, there's a difference), a big tap wrench to hold it, a good padded vise, couple cans of brake cleaner, and some cutting oil (Brownells Do-Drill works fine). There's not really too much that can go wrong.

Or--if you want to send me your cylinder and enclose a return shipping package, I'll ream it for you at no charge.

Same goes for anybody else who needs this done. (As always, asking for S&W's help gets us just about nowhere.)

At least we figured it out.

Edited July 4, 2007 by Carmoney

[Tom E]

Carmoney, Now that you've determined the problem with -8 cylinders for us, what was the (major) diameter of your friends chambers before and after reaming. It would be nice to have a frame of reference. Tom

[JohnSchuler]

I have my lee crimp die on the way, guys. I appreciate all the offers, and will definitely keep them in mind if crimping does not help the problem

Tom E... I'm in North Georgia

I will post what happens when I try the new die.

[Carmoney]

Carmoney, Now that you've determined the problem with -8 cylinders for us, what was the (major) diameter of your friends chambers before and after reaming. It would be nice to have a frame of reference. Tom

Tom, I wish I had measured the "before" inside diameter, but I'm afraid it's too late for that. After reaming, looks like it's around .477" to .478", as best as I can tell with my dial caliper. Looking inside the chambers, it looks like pretty much the whole inside chamber surface was recut with the reamer, I was very surprised at how much material was cut away in the form of chips. The finish reamer did a very nice job, though, and left a nice surface. I buffed it out a little afterwards, but I'm not sure I really needed to. On test-firing with various types of ammo (including the stuff that wouldn't chamber at all before), everything loads, shoots, and extracts just fine.

Interestingly, I recently worked over a new 625-8 (very recent production) that does not seem to exhibit the tight chamber problem at all. I'm pretty sure we're talking about a specific bad production run, not some sort of global problem.

[Tom E]

Thanks, On mine some of the chambers cut about 90% of the circumference, others maybe 65%. Ended up measuring .4800 as close to the cylinder face as I could get with a telescoping gauge. The small ones started at .4760. Polished them with a 600 grit sandpaper roll. Blended the cut perfectly. Seems like everytime I see a -8 it's owner is complaining about brass problems. Tom

Edit: I just looked up .45 acp case dimensions and they show the case diameter just aove the extractor grove as being .476. The only piece of new brass I have (R-P) measures .468. Interesting.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Tom E

[JohnSchuler]

I have my lee crimp die on the way, guys. I appreciate all the offers, and will definitely keep them in mind if crimping does not help the problem

Tom E... I'm in North Georgia

I will post what happens when I try the new die.

I can put an end to this thread with some good news... The Lee crimp die has solved my problems. I love the sound the moon clip makes when it slams the cylinder face with authority!

100 straight rounds shot without cleaning out the cylinder, and the last clip dropped in just as smoothly as the first one.

Thanks all, for some good advice.

John

[sensei]

I have my lee crimp die on the way, guys. I appreciate all the offers, and will definitely keep them in mind if crimping does not help the problem

Tom E... I'm in North Georgia

I will post what happens when I try the new die.

I can put an end to this thread with some good news... The Lee crimp die has solved my problems. I love the sound the moon clip makes when it slams the cylinder face with authority!

100 straight rounds shot without cleaning out the cylinder, and the last clip dropped in just as smoothly as the first one.

Thanks all, for some good advice.

John

Well done, the Lee Factory Crimp Die has solved my problems too, i usually clean the chambers after 3-4 stages ... but sometimes i forget it to do ... and the rounds go in at the same way.