Working up minor loads

[Throwin Lead]

In my quest to become a "student of the game" I made loads for comparison using Clays & Titegroup powder. I'm looking for an accurate load with a light power factor for shooting in the Production Division with my full size MP40. That said I'm looking for an accurate load in the 135 to 145 range - something that shoots with minimal recoil but accurate.

The bullet used was Precision 185gr RNFP loaded to an OAL of 1.125. Brass was once fired mixed head stamps and the primer used was Winchester small pistol. Chrono used was a CED temperature was about 72 degrees with a low humidity. The MP 40 was shot off of sandbags - targets were set at 30 feet. POA was flat line across the bottom of the image to make sure the tops of the sights are perfectly aligned. The "valley" provides an index for the front sight.

When setting up the powder charges I made 3 throws at that amount then weighed 5 throws to be sure that the averages were close to what I wanted. The Standard Deviation (SD) in the chrono test told the tale there. I had very tight SD readings through out my testing.

The loads were as follows:

Clays 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5

Titegroup 3.7, 3.8, 3.9, 4.0

Since starting to shoot in March I have been using the Clays 3.1 load. What a suprise I got!

The results are as follows

Clays 3.1 Soft load but not very accurate. Group is about 3.5” above POA. Average velocity was 724 FPS with a SD of 5. This load made a PF of 133.9

Clays 3.2 Another soft load but not very accurate at all! Shots were well left & 3” above POA. Velocity was 728FPS with a SD of 5. This load made a 134.6 PF

Clays 3.3

Clays 3.3 Another soft load but not very accurate at all! Shots were well left & 3” above POA. They didn’t group very well Velocity was 723FPS with a SD of 6. This load made a 133.75 PF

Clays 3.4 Much more consistent but still not a good showing. Velocity was 739FPS with a SD of 4. This load made 136.7 PF.

Clays 3.5 The best of the Clay’s loads. Group appears to be decent. Velocity was 768FPS with a SD of 3. This load made 142 PF.

Titegroup 3.7 Not too bad – shooting a bit left of POA but much tighter than any of the Clays loads. Velocity was 782FPS with a SD of 7. This load made 144.6 PF.

Titegroup 3.8 Not too bad either. Just a bit left of POA but still a good looking group. Velocity was 792FPS with a SD of 4. This load makes 146.5 PF.

Titegroup 3.9 Getting better! First 2 shots right near POA the other 3 are respectable placements This load had a bit of snap to it – not as soft as all the previous tests Velocity was 812 FPS with a SD of 3. This load makes 150 PF.

Titegroup 4.0 Oh man this is it! This is THE load! This load has much more snap than any of the others! Muzzle lift was really noticeable to me – even off of sandbags. Velocity was 826FPS with a SD of 8. This load makes 152.8 PF.

I learned a lot about reloading during that test fire/chrono session. One lesson learned is that a tenth of a grain can make an accuracy difference. Another lesson learned is that there is a distinct difference in load results between tiny amount of powder changes as well as powder manufacturers. It’s been stated here that “A chrono is a must to anybody serious about working up loads” – I agree very strongly to that statement.

My biggest dilemma now is which load to shoot in Production. Do I use a load that is deadly accurate at a 152PF (snappy load) or use a marginally accurate softer load like the Clay’s at 3.5 making 142 PF? It shoots much softer than the most accurate load but then again I need all the accuracy help I can get!

Any thoughts out there? One of my frriends suggested bumping up the load to Major and shooting Limited 10.

[Lee]

I can't really offer any help, but I look forward to the responses. Need to do some testing of my own. I did have pretty good luck, accuracy out of the 155 Precisions for minor. Seems like I was using 4.2 or 4.3 of TG for a PF around 145.

Thanks, you put me back in testing mode.

[kevin c]

Are you showing representative groups, or the only one shot for the load? I have been told by wiser and older heads that comparing one group shot per load doesn't really say much about the inherent accuracy potential of the load as it does the variability in the shooter. I refused to belief this at first and, to my chagrin, found out my magical recipe that shot into 1" at 25 yds from my first production gun afterwards never grouped better that 4 times that size, and this after I had loaded a couple thousand rounds.

Just a cautionary tale that may not apply.

FWIW, I shoot MG 180's over 3.4 of Clays, which goes into two inches at 25 yds from my G35.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Thanks for the great info. I think if you load a little bit longer it may help. I would try 1.135-1.140 OAL. Your 3.1 grain Clays load looks good enough for your game. You may also try Precision 170 grain bullets. I am in the same boat as you with trying loads for my Glock and STI. I have found so far that the 155 grain bullets are the least accurate but good enough for IDPA and short distance. Keep us posted on your findings. I enjoy the testing as much as the matches and when you shoot a pistol you built yourself it is even greater;-) Thanks, Eric

[Throwin Lead]

Are you showing representative groups, or the only one shot for the load? I have been told by wiser and older heads that comparing one group shot per load doesn't really say much about the inherent accuracy potential of the load as it does the variability in the shooter. I refused to belief this at first and, to my chagrin, found out my magical recipe that shot into 1" at 25 yds from my first production gun afterwards never grouped better that 4 times that size, and this after I had loaded a couple thousand rounds.

Just a cautionary tale that may not apply.

FWIW, I shoot MG 180's over 3.4 of Clays, which goes into two inches at 25 yds from my G35.

Each target represents 5 rounds of each load. The weapon was shot off of sand bags to eliminate as much of my input other than trigger squeeze. My thoughts are I'm looking for a load that the weapon likes as far as accuracy. Call me crazy but I think it would have a positive effect mentally knowing that the load is dialed in for my weapon.

You do make a very valid point - a 5 round group does not make a real good sampling. The next time I test I will probably use 10 rounds as a benchmark and move the target back to 40 ft instead of 30ft.

[steel1212]

I shoot my major 40 para loads through my xd which is still barely major. I get very accurate groups with it. When I was trying to make my XD 40 work with minor loads the groups would open up. I think some 40 cal guns just like em hot. I was using 4.2 TG, WSP, 1.135 OAL and Bear Creek 180 molys through a tactical XD.

[elenius]

I found this very interesting as I also shoot minor 40. Thank you for sharing these results, Throwing lead.

I learned from someone on this forum (sorry, forgot who said this) that in order to get a good load, find a powder/bullet combination which meets your desired PF and is close to or at max load for that bullet/powder combination. Supposedly, as loads get closer to their max, accuracy goes up, SD goes down, and they burn cleaner.

I corroborated this theory the other day when chronoing some loads for my 1911, and it also seems right to me, intuitively. It also explains 1) why Titegroup is so filthy in 45ACP loads, because major PF 45 loads for that powder are close to the minimum load, and 2) why Clays is so good for 45 -- it is at the max load.

I realize that there are other factors that go into the powder/bullet choice, but let's just consider this one for now.

Now, for minor 40, this is hard to do, since all loads are too hot. But I looked at all the official Hodgdon loads on their web site, and the mildest max loads are

135 GR. NOS JHP 135 Clays .400" 1.125" 4.0 940 22,600 PSI 4.5 1071 32,900 PSI (PF 145 for max load)

155 GR. HDY XTP 155 Clays .400" 1.125" 3.6 854 23,300 PSI 4.0 942 30,900 PSI (PF 146 for max laod)

For 180 gr bullets the mildest max load is

180 GR. HDY XTP 180 Clays .400" 1.125" 3.0 727 26,000 PSI 3.5 847 34,300 PSI (PF 152 for max load)

I wouldn't use these bullets (XTP, JHP), but I assume changing to some kind of lead bullet would make the same difference everywhere, so to speak.

So, given this, a 155 grain Clays load a little bit under max might be a good load.

A more general conclusion is that 40 minor may just not be that great of an idea, since one has to go a bit too hot to get a decent load

With 9mm, many max loads are very close to 125 PF.

Does any of this make sense?

Edited June 24, 2007 by elenius

[Throwin Lead]

I found this very interesting as I also shoot minor 40. Thank you for sharing these results, Throwing lead.

I learned from someone on this forum (sorry, forgot who said this) that in order to get a good load, find a powder/bullet combination which meets your desired PF and is close to or at max load for that bullet/powder combination. Supposedly, as loads get closer to their max, accuracy goes up, SD goes down, and they burn cleaner.

I corroborated this theory the other day when chronoing some loads for my 1911, and it also seems right to me, intuitively. It also explains 1) why Titegroup is so filthy in 45ACP loads, because major PF 45 loads for that powder are close to the minimum load, and 2) why Clays is so good for 45 -- it is at the max load.

I realize that there are other factors that go into the powder/bullet choice, but let's just consider this one for now.

Now, for minor 40, this is hard to do, since all loads are too hot. But I looked at all the official Hodgdon loads on their web site, and the mildest max loads are

135 GR. NOS JHP 135 Clays .400" 1.125" 4.0 940 22,600 PSI 4.5 1071 32,900 PSI (PF 145 for max load)

155 GR. HDY XTP 155 Clays .400" 1.125" 3.6 854 23,300 PSI 4.0 942 30,900 PSI (PF 146 for max laod)

For 180 gr bullets the mildest max load is

180 GR. HDY XTP 180 Clays .400" 1.125" 3.0 727 26,000 PSI 3.5 847 34,300 PSI (PF 152 for max load)

I wouldn't use these bullets (XTP, JHP), but I assume changing to some kind of lead bullet would make the same difference everywhere, so to speak.

So, given this, a 155 grain Clays load a little bit under max might be a good load.

A more general conclusion is that 40 minor may just not be that great of an idea, since one has to go a bit too hot to get a decent load

With 9mm, many max loads are very close to 125 PF.

Does any of this make sense?

I agree with you to some extent. Shooting 4.0 gr of TG with the 185 Precision bullet makes a lot of smoke! I think it is more of the powder burning than using a moly coated bullet.

A lesson I learned about factory load data is that it gets you ballpark figures. Take another look at the Clays targets and note the velocity of each increment in comparision to the factory load data. You will see a distinct difference of what I shot verses what the factory data says I should shoot. That is why working loads to suit the weapon is so important. I'm thinking that if I ran this same test with a Montana Gold or a Berry's plated bullet the results will vary to some degree. I think the accuracy of each load & the PF would be affected either positively or negatively as well as a result of changing projectiles. Perhaps if I get some time in the near future I can do just that with MG's & Berrys and post those results as well.

I strongly disagree with you regarding 40 minor not being a great idea. I think that 40 is a great platform to tinker with minor loads. Minor loads shoot very flat out of my MP. It's a shame the guy pulling the trigger can't take advantage of that! LOL!

I read an article here called The Seduction of .40 minor in Production by Carina Burns Randolph . This was a very well written technical article regarding this issue. I was unable to get a link to this article - perhaps somebody can help out.

My original goal was to find the load that is most accurate for my weapon. I think I have done that even though it means shooting Production with a 150+ power factor.

Beat regards,

TL

[elenius]

I agree with you to some extent. Shooting 4.0 gr of TG with the 185 Precision bullet makes a lot of smoke! I think it is more of the powder burning than using a moly coated bullet.

And it leaves the gun absolutely filthy too, both inside and out.

A lesson I learned about factory load data is that it gets you ballpark figures. Take another look at the Clays targets and note the velocity of each increment in comparision to the factory load data. You will see a distinct difference of what I shot verses what the factory data says I should shoot. That is why working loads to suit the weapon is so important. I'm thinking that if I ran this same test with a Montana Gold or a Berry's plated bullet the results will vary to some degree. I think the accuracy of each load & the PF would be affected either positively or negatively as well as a result of changing projectiles. Perhaps if I get some time in the near future I can do just that with MG's & Berrys and post those results as well.

That would be cool. Ideally, we should have the instruments to measure the pressure of our loads too, and numbers on what pressure is ideal for each powder. I suspect this is the key when it comes to powder type and amount.

I strongly disagree with you regarding 40 minor not being a great idea. I think that 40 is a great platform to tinker with minor loads. Minor loads shoot very flat out of my MP. It's a shame the guy pulling the trigger can't take advantage of that! LOL!

I didn't say it's not a good idea, I say it may not be a great idea I also like to tinker with it. It's just as cheap as 9mm to reload anyway, with brass being effectively free, and the slightly more expensive bullets being more or less offset by the smaller amount of gunpowder needed.

I read an article here called The Seduction of .40 minor in Production by Carina Burns Randolph . This was a very well written technical article regarding this issue. I was unable to get a link to this article - perhaps somebody can help out.

My original goal was to find the load that is most accurate for my weapon. I think I have done that even though it means shooting Production with a 150+ power factor.

The question is, how does this compare to shooting a 9mm at 130pf?

[Flexmoney]

The question is, how does this compare to shooting a 9mm at 130pf?

It compares just fine.

In fact...I'm pretty sure it's good enough for a few trophies at the Production Nationals.

BTW, that article that Carina wrote on 40 Minor is also posted on this forum...fire up the search function...

[raz-0]

I'm currently shooting berry's 180gr RNDS bullets loaded to 1.130 nominal OAL over 4.5gr of titegroup using WSP primers. I ahd started with 3.7gr of titegroup and that was getting me about 142-145pf out of my M&P40 depending on weather, etc. I figured it was reasonably accurate, but I also wanted a major load to play in l-10 and limtied if I felt like it.

I made up small batches of 4.3, 4.5, and 4.7 gr loads to test.

target was an 8 inch paper plate a

3.7 gave me about 80% on a 20 yard target and 50% at 35 yards with a very mild recoil.

4.3 I didn't even bother to write down because it wasn't even close to major and accuracy was close enough to my 3.7 loads I didn't think twice about it. Never did the 35 yard test, and am thinking about repeating it to find a more minor minor load I suspect that I may have ignored a sweet spot in the 4.0-4.4 range without as much recoil.

4.5 was noticably snappier than the 3.7 loads, but accuracy tightened up dramatically. At 20 yards, I was easily grouping them in about 5", at 35 yards I was gettting 80% on the target. Which for me is pretty good. pf is about 160.

4.7 was a bit harsher than 4.5, and the primers finally started looking similar to factory ammo after the fact. However, accuracy really opened up even up close. From a rest at 35 yards, the group was easily 10 inches. Even at 15, groups were twice as big. The berry's either don't like the powder or the velocity from this gun. PF was about 167 IIRC.

I've been shooting minor with 4.5 gr loads. I think the answer for me is going to be switching to lighter bullets. Based on my results, a friend went with 165gr berrys, and is getting decent accuracy at 145-ish pf. Which is close enough to the 142pf i was shooting with 9mm.

However I'm also thinking of changing powders to be able to get a major PF laod with 165gr bullets.

[elenius]

I tried a bunch of different searches to try to find that article, and came up with nothing.

[Flexmoney]

I tried a bunch of different searches to try to find that article, and came up with nothing.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=minor&st=0

[MustangGreg66]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=minor&st=0

WOW, what a great article.

Back to the topic of the minor loads. I've been playing with clays a little for a minor .40 load and was suprised to see the diffrence in accuracy you're seeing between tightgroup and clays. I was pretty much just testing to meet power factor an haddn't really taken accuracy into account yet. How do you think changing the COL and/or amount of crimp would help or hurt accuracy? I'll have to see what size groups I can get next time I go out rather than just running them over the chrony.