Trigger Job

[art mc]

Does anyone know of Randy's Lee method of a trigger job. I have one of his hammer's and only able to get to 5 lbs. He says he uses the stock springs. Any advice out there?

[Carmoney]

Not sure this will be helpful....but in my opinion if you try to go below 5 pounds you are probably giving up something in terms of (1) ignition reliability, and/or (2) good trigger rebound.

I think 5.5 or 6 pounds is a safer and smarter range for a competition action. I'd rather have a little heavier action than risk a misfire or a "double-clutch" in the middle of a match.

[Waltermitty]

Does anyone know of Randy's Lee method of a trigger job. I have one of his hammer's and only able to get to 5 lbs. He says he uses the stock springs. Any advice out there?

There are probably too many things to list here. Perhaps he will write a book some day.

The hammer must be centered and must not touch the frame at any point. It would stand to reason that the trigger must also be centered in the gun on the hammer sear.

He uses an extended length firing pin that he chucks up and turns down to reduce diameter. It is also polished. I would guess he also polishes the firing pin channel.

He cuts coils off his firing pin spring.

The list goes on...

In Jerry M's video he talks about cutting down the cylinder lock spring to reduce tension on the end of the cylinder locking pin.

Of course, all internal moving parts must be very smooth and perfectly aligned throughout the gun. The ramp on the return spring carrier must be radically tapered and polished so that the hammer will reset with the minimum amount of return spring force.

5 pounds is about the best I can do with 100% reliability right now, maybe a little under. This weekend's winner's gun had a measured sub-4 pound pull on small pistol primers.

If you have 100% reliability with a 5 pound double action pull, that's pretty good.

[RodeoClown]

The ramp on the return spring carrier must be radically tapered and polished so that the hammer will reset with the minimum amount of return spring force.

I keep hearing about the tapering of the return spring carrier ... Does anybody maybe have a picture of such a tapered return spring carrier, or could maybe explain where one tapers it?

Much appreciated.

[Bob McGee]

I have been using Randy's hammers in my 625 & 627 for about two years, they are both working flawlessly at 4.25 lbs. I also use the C&S firing pin without modification, as it comes from Brownell's. For a mainspring I use the stock S&W with a slight arch added to the top 1/3 of the spring, for the trigger return spring I use an 11lb Wolf with one coil clipped off . I then back the strain screw off until the gun starts to fail to ignite the primers. Then tighten the screw 1/4 - 1/2 turn, what ever it takes to give 100% reliability. I'm sure if I wanted to start doing some of the other things listed in the previous posts I could get the double action pull even lower, but I am happy with the 4.25 lbs. I am so pleased with Randy's product that I have just ordered two more.

[festus1]

+1 for Randy's good work. I have several revos has has worked on incl. a 625 and 627 both at @ 4+lbs and they run great. I got to shoot on the same squad as Jerry M over the weekend and that was very cool. I thought for sure I'd win what with Randy's action work and all, but I didn't. I was 43% of Jerry in the USPSA match and 51% in the IPSC match. It was very helpful to see "how it is done" first hand though.

[Carmoney]

It's not that you can't go clear down to 4 pounds, but you are that much closer to having ignition problems if you try it.

Now--Randy is the best revolversmith in the biz. No question about it. But only discretion prevents me from listing the names of several well-known revolver guys who shoot Randy guns whom I have personally witnessed having misfires at major matches. Yeah, those were probably primers that didn't quite get seated all the way, or whatever, but I'm just not willing to ride that close to the edge.

And although they are deliciously light, Randy's actions don't have quite enough positive trigger rebound for my taste, even after he's contoured the rebound slide and all that. I guess my trigger finger's just not "trained" quite well enough yet!

[mwx40x40]

Can a 25-2 with the firing pin on the hammer be tuned as well as the current models with frame mounted firing pins? How important is the light weight hammer to get these sub 5 lb trigger pulls.

After similar tuning stated in the above threads (with the exception of bobbed/lightened hammer) I got a lighter trigger pull , but trigger return has suffered. Turn in on mainspring screw too much and trigger return will come to a halt. Turn out for better return and when it starts to really feel good (light pull and good return) I get light strikes with Federal Primers seated oh so careful in perfectly straight moonclips.

Right now I have it running fairly good with no misfires. Trigger pull okay, but trigger return still feels sticky if you release the trigger real slow. Is this normal? How much would trigger pull suffer if I went back in with a little more trigger return spring as coils have been cut off the original?

[Viggen]

Can a 25-2 with the firing pin on the hammer be tuned as well as the current models with frame mounted firing pins?

No. They can obviously be smoothed up and lightened but not to the extent of the extent of the frame mounted firing pin guns.

[Carmoney]

In Jerry M's video he talks about cutting down the cylinder lock spring to reduce tension on the end of the cylinder locking pin.

I just leave the spring and plunger out completely.

I thought for sure I'd win what with Randy's action work and all, but I didn't. I was 43% of Jerry in the USPSA match and 51% in the IPSC match.

Could it be that the real answer to succeeding in this division is not available for purchase? Could it be that the equipment race in Revolver is illusory??

[DougCarden]

I have an older 625 with the hammer mounted firing pin. I lightened the hammer and have it set at 6lbs and it goes bang every time. I plan on testing it at 5.5lbs to see if it is reliable but have no problems shooting it now the way it is. As long as your 25-2 or other hammer mounted firing pin gun's cylinder pin hole on the frame isnt hogged out you should be able to lighten it quite a bit with "carmonizing" the hammer. It wont be as light as you can go with a frame mounted firing pin though....

Good luck on the project....

DougC

[Waltermitty]

In Jerry M's video he talks about cutting down the cylinder lock spring to reduce tension on the end of the cylinder locking pin.

I just leave the spring and plunger out completely.

I thought for sure I'd win what with Randy's action work and all, but I didn't. I was 43% of Jerry in the USPSA match and 51% in the IPSC match.

Could it be that the real answer to succeeding in this division is not available for purchase? Could it be that the equipment race in Revolver is illusory??

So do you have the crane lock that holds the cylinder in? That's interesting. I need a closer look at your gun the next time I see you.

Success in this division is about skill (as if I would know) and there aren't any really huge technological advantages to gain (like 30 round mags and red dot sights). I do think that getting the trigger pull into middle single digits is important just for human endurance factors and doing those things necessary to have a tough reliable gun.

In the human factors area, you need to do whatever is necessary to accomodate your particular physical characteristics and style (grips, sights, etc) and whatever you have to do to stop blaming your equipment and focus on the real limitations to your performance.

Of course, some of us just like to tinker and that's an important part of the fun.

[pskys2]

Deliciously Light, sounds like El Conquistador talking of his favorite beverage!

Randy was, before he got swamped with success, working on a reliable sub 4# trigger! And dreaming of a sub 3#! A man with vision!

Carmoney's right, put the money into primers and don't stress about a trigger below 5+#.

[Carmoney]

So do you have the crane lock that holds the cylinder in?

OK Walt, I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the little spring and plunger that ride in the little hole at the very back of the bolt and put (unnecessary) forward pressure on the bolt. Jerry cuts the spring but leaves it in--I just yank them out completely. I do not typically alter the springs contained within the cylinder/extractor assembly. The cylinder is primarily locked into place by the center pin, as usual, it's just that the bolt is not pushing forward on the centerpin when you're shooting the gun. It's pretty questionable whether it really makes any real difference, but since I'm messing around in there anyway.....

Success in this division is about skill (as if I would know) and there aren't any really huge technological advantages to gain (like 30 round mags and red dot sights). I do think that getting the trigger pull into middle single digits is important just for human endurance factors and doing those things necessary to have a tough reliable gun.

In the human factors area, you need to do whatever is necessary to accomodate your particular physical characteristics and style (grips, sights, etc) and whatever you have to do to stop blaming your equipment and focus on the real limitations to your performance.

Of course, some of us just like to tinker and that's an important part of the fun.

Well stated. And I agree completely.

[art mc]

Thanks for the help.....! Good Feedback........!

[Bob McGee]

About 35 years ago I had a PPC gun built by a noted west coast gun smith. When the gun arrived it did not have the front eject rod lock. This had me really worried so I placed a phone call to the smith inquiring what was going on, his reply was that all of his guns went out that way and that he had never had a problem. Since then I have built a number of K & L frame guns with out the front eject rod lock. I know this will raise some eye brows, but I have never had a problem, however, I also never shot hot loads in any of these guns.

If you look at Jerry's tape on the S&W action job, you will see that when he spins the cylinder it really free wheels. With no ejector rod lock, no no bolt spring plunger and end shake set at .002 I still can't make any of my guns spin almost friction free like Jerry's. What else is he doing???

[Carmoney]

What else is he doing???

Shoots the living piss out of 'em.

Since then I have built a number of K & L frame guns with out the front eject rod lock. I know this will raise some eye brows....

Yeah, I don't think the front lock really does much. Neither do those crane ball locks, if you want to know the truth. Now the newer ball lock system on the PC guns seems to actually work pretty well, but it makes the gun a little stickier to open on speed reloads.

Everything in life's a trade-off of some sort, huh?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

What else is he doing???

Polish the barrel of the yoke, polish the extractor rod and make sure it is as straight as you can get it.

The locking bolt is a carry over piece from the days when the extractor rod was not protected by the full under lug. It also helps make the cylinder turn true if the barrel of the yoke is worn.

I agree with Mike, the spring for the bolt can go away and not be missed. That said, I leave mine as they come from the factory and polish the hell out of the barrel of the yoke. As my hands get worse, I actually need a heavier action to keep me from short stroking.