Grip For Rifle--how To Place Weak-hand On Tube?

[cjochetz]

Hello--

I've been shooting 3-Gun for awhile and am coming to the conclusion that my technique is not up to the task. I shoot an un-compensated, 20in, AR HBAR. MY follow-up shot time is in the crapper and I think this is due to my grip on the rifle--specifically my weak-hand grip on the tube.

Experimenting, I have found that moving my hand forward on the tube, and rotating my hand further over on top of the tube seems to quell the muzzle rise somewhat, allowing for faster follow-up target acquisition. The difficulty I'm having is in how this altered off-hand grip FEELS. It's awkward, and it must look that way as well.

Is this an appropriate grip? What do you guys do (short of compensating your rifles, which doesn't interest me)?

Thanks in advance!

Edited March 12, 2007 by cjochetz

[outerlimits]

Hello--

I've been shooting 3-Gun for awhile and am coming to the conclusion that my technique is not up to the task. I shoot an un-compensated, 20in, AR HBAR. MY follow-up shot time is in the crapper and I think this is due to my grip on the rifle--specifically my weak-hand grip on the tube.

Experimenting, I have found that moving my hand forward on the tube, and rotating my hand further over on top of the tube seems to quell the muzzle rise somewhat, allowing for faster follow-up target acquisition. The difficulty I'm having is in how this altered off-hand grip FEELS. It's awkward, and it must look that way as well.

Is this an appropriate grip? What do you guys do (short of compensating your rifles, which doesn't interest me)?

Thanks in advance!

i don't think it matters whether the rifle is compensated or not. for rifle and shotgun, the weak hand on the forend should be where your index finger is pointing toward the muzzle-much like a proper pistol grip. weak arm should not be under the gun but rather aside it (i.e. weak elbow up). much easier to drive longuns that way. takes a bit getting used to when mounting the guns, but transitions are quicker.

[cjochetz]

Outerlimits--

Thank you, that's what thought, and that's the reinforcement I was looking for. I'm curious though-- it seems like our "civy" games should be somewhat of an extension of the tactics and techniques taught to our brave guys and gals on the front lines, yet this seems to be a technique not used outside of our sport. I'm wondering where/how various techniques cross-over. I suppose a weak-hand elbow to the side would make it difficult to maneuver in a close-quarters scenario, just as a strong side elbow (i.e. "chicken wing") would. I'm always interested in learning new techniques, but i am particularly interested in those that have practical implications outside of our sport.

Very interesting indeed.

[Bear1142]

A good rifle compensator will make all the difference. I would strongly consider getting one. Then see what happens with your second shots. The adjustments you make will be more subtle and not be so hard to incorporate into your technique.

Erik

[kellyn]

Outerlimits--

Thank you, that's what thought, and that's the reinforcement I was looking for. I'm curious though-- it seems like our "civy" games should be somewhat of an extension of the tactics and techniques taught to our brave guys and gals on the front lines, yet this seems to be a technique not used outside of our sport. I'm wondering where/how various techniques cross-over. I suppose a weak-hand elbow to the side would make it difficult to maneuver in a close-quarters scenario, just as a strong side elbow (i.e. "chicken wing") would. I'm always interested in learning new techniques, but i am particularly interested in those that have practical implications outside of our sport.

Very interesting indeed.

I'd be careful about wanting to copy what is used by many (but not all) LEO and military. Usually techniques filter from the civy games to the "tactical" world and not so much vice versa. The LEO/military world tends to be slow to change whereas the competition world thrives on it. The LEO/military world should be conservative and not just follow the latest trends but just looking at the refusal of many to give up on the Weaver stance shows you how slow change can be.

As for the grip when shooting offhand, my support hand grip can be described as pointing my index finger at the target, gently curling the other fingers around the handguard and have my thumb almost point at the target as well. The hand is towards the end of the handguard. I have had no problem manuevering in tight confines. If things get really tight you just twist the elbow inboard slightly. Many real world types use a similiar grip, especially those trained by Voigt, Cooley, and Lamb.

You often see tactical types holding the rifle very far back, near or at the mag well. That really slows down transitions and does little to guide the muzzle. It also give the rifle more leverage during recoil. That grip is even worse when shooting a full size rifle - half the weight of the rifle is hanging out there unsupported.

I'm with Erik and would suggest getting a good comp as well.

[uscbigdawg]

Echoing every buddy else, I've trained a lot with Cooley and that's how I grip the rifle as well (the same as Kelly, Erik and Butch). Much easier to drive the rifle in transitions, much more stable platform and just overall better control of the rifle.

Also...get a comp.

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

If you are gonna hump a ruck 8+ hours a day and during that 8+ hours you will be presenting (e.g. bringing up the gun as you scan for targets) about a bazillion times... use the hand on magwell technique and all. It is generally less tiring.

If you are going to be shooting three gun where you will be presenting significantly less than a bazillion times use the above mentioned technique. It is faster on the transitions and it points easier.

Or if you really want to be Ninja use both. Use the "Cooley" technique when you are well into the shooting and/or when you know the stuff is about to hit the fan. Use the magwell type hold during the times when it isn't.

My $.01 from a sofa.

[ShooterSteve]

Check out the Matt Burkett videos on AR shooting. It is very clearly demonstrated in there. I know there are different strokes for different folks, but I kind of respect what people in his class have to say.

[DHTampa]

Anybody done the math on the difference between distances with elbow out or elbow in? Obviously if your my brother with ape arms it's big, but for those of us with human appendages it's probably negligible. I'd imagine in a tactical environment with all of the other kit hanging off of you that the difference is minimal and the benefits of a stable shooting platform outweigh those of potentially saving a few inches.

[George]

The extended arm position will do little in stopping muzzle rize and rifle bounce from bolt cycling. Only a muzzle brake will alleviate this. If you can't control the recoil un-supported and don't want to use a muzzle brake, then think about accepting the shot to shot times you are getting.

The last thing you want to be doing is yanking the front of the rifle down while shooting, this is a kind of flinch and it will be bad juju if you develop it as a habitual thing.

Also, shooting un-supported when support for the rifle fore end is available is a loser. Always use support if it can be had (ports, walls, etc...). Nothing speeds up follow on shots like support (or a muzzle brake).