Over Reduction Of Overtravel = Occasional Failure To Reset?

[BayouSlide]

I'm looking for a reality check on something I've been puzzling over today. Here's the situation.

I've had a Ralph Sotello Triggerkit in my G34 for the last 17K rounds and a Lone Wolf Ultimate Trigger Stop for the last 5K. BTW, 28K rds total on the gun. Wolfe competition kit springs and ISMI 13# recoil spring get changed out every 6K, so springs are GTG.

About two months ago I reduced the over travel with the LWUTS another 1/2 turn. Everything working swell for about 2K practice rounds. At the next match, I had a couple of failures to reset that, in the heat of the moment, I attributed to a cold day, stiff lube and a recoil spring that was weakened. Changed out the recoil spring and had no other problems for a month, including another match.

But today early in a practice session, it happened again, two or three times. After a vigrous rack on the slide, the pistol was in battery, but the trigger wouldn't reset until I pulled back on the slide a little and released it again. After a little more shooting, the problem ceased and everything worked hunky dory. FWIW, the gun was a little dirty, but only about 500 rounds worth, and had been detail stripped and cleaned a just a couple weeks ago.

I've been poring over the forum here and on GlockTalk but have run into little that sheds any light on the situation.

Could too much reduction in overtravel prevent a reset in this way? Seemed theorectically possible, I guess, so I've backed off the overtravel screw to my earlier setting and I'm ready to change out all the springs except the new recoil spring, as well. I considered some sort of connector problem, but compared my stock polished 3.5# OEM connector to some factory fresh versions and the shape and dimensions seem fine, i.e. no unusual wear.

Appreciate any ideas or insights. I don't like intermittent problems in my normally stone-reliable G34...particularly ones I can't puzzle out

[kygundoc]

I'm looking for a reality check on something I've been puzzling over today. Here's the situation.

I've had a Ralph Sotello Triggerkit in my G34 for the last 17K rounds and a Lone Wolf Ultimate Trigger Stop for the last 5K. BTW, 28K rds total on the gun. Wolfe competition kit springs and ISMI 13# recoil spring get changed out every 6K, so springs are GTG.

About two months ago I reduced the over travel with the LWUTS another 1/2 turn. Everything working swell for about 2K practice rounds. At the next match, I had a couple of failures to reset that, in the heat of the moment, I attributed to a cold day, stiff lube and a recoil spring that was weakened. Changed out the recoil spring and had no other problems for a month, including another match.

But today early in a practice session, it happened again, two or three times. After a vigrous rack on the slide, the pistol was in battery, but the trigger wouldn't reset until I pulled back on the slide a little and released it again. After a little more shooting, the problem ceased and everything worked hunky dory. FWIW, the gun was a little dirty, but only about 500 rounds worth, and had been detail stripped and cleaned a just a couple weeks ago.

I've been poring over the forum here and on GlockTalk but have run into little that sheds any light on the situation.

Could too much reduction in overtravel prevent a reset in this way? Seemed theorectically possible, I guess, so I've backed off the overtravel screw to my earlier setting and I'm ready to change out all the springs except the new recoil spring, as well. I considered some sort of connector problem, but compared my stock polished 3.5# OEM connector to some factory fresh versions and the shape and dimensions seem fine, i.e. no unusual wear.

Appreciate any ideas or insights. I don't like intermittent problems in my normally stone-reliable G34...particularly ones I can't puzzle out

What weight is your recoil spring? is it so light that the striker spring is not letting the slide go fully closed? Test this by holding the slide back and hold the trigger back while slowly easing your slide forward till it stops. This shows up in dirty guns more often than clean guns. Just one possibility that I have seen in stock guns as well as custom Glocks.

DF

[BayouSlide]

What weight is your recoil spring? is it so light that the striker spring is not letting the slide go fully closed? Test this by holding the slide back and hold the trigger back while slowly easing your slide forward till it stops. This shows up in dirty guns more often than clean guns. Just one possibility that I have seen in stock guns as well as custom Glocks.

DF

Thanks, DF, but the recoil spring is #13 and GTG with the striker. Passes the above test muzzle up with flying colors.

But just to muddy the waters a little, I had reduced the overtravel in my back up G17 by the same amount [same setup, LWUTS, RS trigger, etc.] and noticed today after cleaning it after today's practice that it was "notchy" going into battery in the above test with the barrel pointed straight up. But after increasing the overtravel by 1/2 turn back to my original setting, it went into battery smoothly.

That's what made me really start to wonder if too little overtravel was really the cause of my problems. I guess I'm a little vague on exactly what too little overtravel would cause. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

[kygundoc]

What weight is your recoil spring? is it so light that the striker spring is not letting the slide go fully closed? Test this by holding the slide back and hold the trigger back while slowly easing your slide forward till it stops. This shows up in dirty guns more often than clean guns. Just one possibility that I have seen in stock guns as well as custom Glocks.

DF

Thanks, DF, but the recoil spring is #13 and GTG with the striker. Passes the above test muzzle up with flying colors.

But just to muddy the waters a little, I had reduced the overtravel in my back up G17 by the same amount [same setup, LWUTS, RS trigger, etc.] and noticed today after cleaning it after today's practice that it was "notchy" going into battery in the above test with the barrel pointed straight up. But after increasing the overtravel by 1/2 turn back to my original setting, it went into battery smoothly.

That's what made me really start to wonder if too little overtravel was really the cause of my problems. I guess I'm a little vague on exactly what too little overtravel would cause. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

The only time I have had a notchy feeling that had to do with the overtravel stop is when I Made one and did not polish off the face of the dog point set screw. I flatened the face of the set screw and that went away. I make my own "Ultimate" trigger stops and include them with the trigger jobs I do.

Getting back to the not resetting problem it could be a number of things past the simple spring issue. I have seen the conector tweeked a little too much cause this same problem. By tweeked I mean bending the angle on the bottom of the connector closer to 90 degrees to get less pressure aginst the trigger bar. Back of the trigger bar polished too much and slipping over the connector thus no trigger pull but feels like it did not reset. Too much overtravel ajustment will not cause the gun not to reset but will cause you not to be able to pull the trigger far enough to release the striker. Engagement of the trigger bar to the striker slipping and the striker is not being pulled back to position on the triger bar. I have seen this on guns with the striker that has the face angle cut. Normally this type of problem is preceded by a full auto bust of a few rounds but I have seen this happen without the burst. Engagement is checked with the orange cover plate or you can cut off a standard cover plate to check this. Not many people around here use the RS trigger so I do not know the product well enough to give any advice on it.

DF

[BayouSlide]

Too much overtravel ajustment will not cause the gun not to reset but will cause you not to be able to pull the trigger far enough to release the striker.

Thanks for the info, DF. That is what I recall reading when I orginally set up the LWUTS. That's what had me scratching my head.

So it doesn't appear, in your opinion, that the sort of malfunction I'm seeing could have anything to do with the overtravel adjustment. If that's the case, I'd love to reduce the overtravel back to my previous adjustment, all else being equal.

In all likelihood then, based on the info you've provided, I might be at the point where I may be beginning to get wear in the trigger group and/or connector and that may be causing the problem. For now, I think I'll change out the trigger group springs and drop a fresh connector in and test. I've got at least four practice sessions before the next match and if the intermittent problem doesn't crop up again, I'm GTG. If not, I guess the next step is change out to a fresh triggerbar.

Hate to change out the triggerbar and connector at this point, though: after about 30K rounds, the trigger pull is slick and sweet.

Really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on troubleshooting my problem.

[Chuck Merriam]

I talked to Vanek about this very question awhile back and he told me it causes problems with the reset. I had a buddy having a rest problem and he increased the overtravel a little and it went away. Just give it a try. After pulling the trigger you need to hear the Striker rattling around in the channel just to be sure. It needs to fully get out of the way. Kinda like the overtravel on a 1911 being too short...causing the half cock to hit the sear nose on the way by....it too needs to fully be allowed to clear. Hard to hear if you have a Ti one. If you think about it, the trigger bar will be too low to hold on to the striker, especially if it is older and worn smooth.

Chuck M.

[BayouSlide]

I talked to Vanek about this very question awhile back and he told me it causes problems with the reset. I had a buddy having a rest problem and he increased the overtravel a little and it went away. Just give it a try.

Very interesting indeed. Thanks for passing on the info, Chuck. When troubleshooting anything, I usually assume the last change I made in any mechanical device most likely caused the problem until proven otherwise.

The gun ran flawlessly with my original---and conservative---overtravel setting...but then I got greedy and wanted just a little more of a good thing

I like things tweeked but on the 100 percent reliable side...I guess I may have just crossed the line into 98 percent reliability with that additional 1/2 turn of the overtravel stop screw.

I'm going back to my old setting, or maybe halfway inbetween the old and the newer setting, an shoot for a couple of weeks to see how it turns out.

Appreciate the info and interest from both you and DF to help out a fellow shooter. I've learned a lot on these forums and the always helpful and pleasant tone of the discussions around here is an increasingly rare commodity on the Web.

Curtis

Edited February 25, 2007 by BayouSlide

[Chuck Merriam]

This is the best forum on the web. Thanks to the mods for keeping it A**H*** free

Our sport is one of the only places I feel people like us, are the norm. There are always exceptions, but here on the forum everything is very open. Even to the point that the people we help may very well be the people who beat at the next match

[Fireglock]

I'm not sure that I agree that the adjustment is causing the problem but I think that adjusting it may have. I think kygundoc hit on what may be happening when he mentioned the face of the adjustment screw. If it's sharp it may have turned to the point it's biting the trigger bar and not letting it slip up and engage the firing pin correctly. Most of the screws we use for overtravel adjustment have cupped faces which could let them "bite" the trigger bar and not release it. I can't say I've had anything like that happen to me with any of the triggers I've done but it would appear to definitely be a possibility.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Fireglock

[dirty whiteboy]

I'm not sure that I agree that the adjustment is causing the problem but I think that adjusting it may have. I think kygundoc hit on what may be happening when he mentioned the face of the adjustment screw. If it's sharp it may have turned to the point it's biting the trigger bar and not letting it slip up and engage the firing pin correctly. Most of the screws we use for overtravel adjustment have cupped faces which could let them "bite" the trigger bar and not release it. I can't say I've had anything like that happen to me with any of the triggers I've done but it would appear to definitely be a possibility.

Hey, thanks for sharing some of your words of wisdom Fireglock! Glad you are on board here. I love you man!

[Fireglock]

I'm not sure that I agree that the adjustment is causing the problem but I think that adjusting it may have. I think kygundoc hit on what may be happening when he mentioned the face of the adjustment screw. If it's sharp it may have turned to the point it's biting the trigger bar and not letting it slip up and engage the firing pin correctly. Most of the screws we use for overtravel adjustment have cupped faces which could let them "bite" the trigger bar and not release it. I can't say I've had anything like that happen to me with any of the triggers I've done but it would appear to definitely be a possibility.

Hey, thanks for sharing some of your words of wisdom Fireglock! Glad you are on board here. I love you man!

Easy whiteboy, people might talk!

[Flexmoney]

I think there was just a thread on this over on GT.

[BayouSlide]

I think there was just a thread on this over on GT.

Flex, I looked high and low and couldn't find anything related to either "overtravel" or "over travel" or "reset" on this topic. Plenty of food for thought here, though, now. Thanks again, all.

[Flexmoney]

I couldn't find it either. The short version...ease up on the over-travel.

[BayouSlide]

I couldn't find it either. The short version...ease up on the over-travel.

Right you are...the doomed and quixotic search for the elusive "1911-like" trigger in the Glock runs full speed into the brick wall of reality once again

Going to pull out all the modded parts for the GSSF match in Thibodaux, La., in April. Can't remember what a stock Glock trigger even feels like anymore...but guess I'll be finding out soon.

[want2race]

Ditto's on KYGunDoc.

I found the exact same thing. The set screw's foward tip should be flat and polished. The set screws are ususally made with a tapered tip. This prevents the cruciform from popping up.

[Charlie Vanek]

The set screw's foward tip should be flat and polished.

Been doing that for years on my over-travel stop screw.

[BayouSlide]

The set screw's foward tip should be flat and polished.

Been doing that for years on my over-travel stop screw.

Thanks to Charlie, who went well out of his way to help out a new customer, I ultimately solved the problem---one way or the other---by replacing the entire trigger setup. My new Vanek production drop-in trigger has been running great.

It has a very different feel than my previous trigger, primarily a firmer and crisper pull. The trigger safety works exactly like stock and "pops" the "safety lever" on the trigger out completely. Had to retrain my finger a bit because of this to make sure I cleared the safety lever cleanly every time with my fingertip when shooting at speed. But the trigger pull and reset is really crisp. Like the feel of a clean Glock trigger, just better in every way.

Charlie has obviously spent a lot of time experimenting how to get the most out of a Glock trigger without pushing the envelope too close to the edge---an excellent approach in my book and I'm really pleased with both the product and his excellent customer service.

Edited March 10, 2007 by BayouSlide