650 Primer Mechanism "jamming"

[renaissance7697]

OK…..

I have a persistent problem that I need to work out before it starts trashing parts.

My problem is, that the small pistol primer disk on my 650 is “Jamming” while processing 9mm.

I have already “bent” one Primer Indexing Arm, and am surely going to bend the new one that I took from my spare parts kit, unless I find and cure the “jamming” problem.

On the question of “Which Side UP”:

I am confounded that Dillon continues to insist that there is NO right or wrong sides to the primer disks in the face of so much apparent evidence as seems to becoming collected from users, to the contrary. I do not know which view is more correct. I would think that after all these years, the experts at Dillon would KNOW their equipment.

Perhaps it is that with “some” primer disks, It makes no difference; while some others ( which may have been manufactured a bit differently), it Does!

Perhaps the answer here is to request a “New” primer disk from Dillon which they have examined and pronounced to be “the same” either Side up, and which performs reliably with “either side up”.

In any event, the problem manifesting itself in the “which side up” is NOT the one I am facing. That situation leads to problems where “UNUSED” primers do not drop free and jam the primer disk when to unused primer does not drop free and jams attempting to enter the “accept new dropped primer position in the primer disk rotation sequence.

My problem seems to be that primers ( either at the time of being dropped or sometimes between then and when they appear on the primer punch) jam the disk, and if I am in a rhythm and push the handle too hard I start bending the primer index arm.

It is a HARD Jam… Almost an absolute STOP.

( I am finding primers that appear to have been subjected to a “shearing force” that attempts to slice the primer in half laterally)

I have been through the:

1) remove shell plate

2) remove primer mechanism

3) Remove primers from tube and plate base

4) disassemble primer mechanism

5) clean up and deal with the stacked up cases in the case feeder system

6) reassemble

Then process a dozen or more cases before having to go through 1-6 again.

I have examined all my parts.

When manually indexing the primer disk, that is: reaching in and cycling it with my finger ( with the primer punch lowered of course)….it seems to have a lot of resistance to rotating ( more than I remember from past instances). But it feels smooth ( stiff but smooth)

I can find nothing that appears to look seriously wrong…yet..

( If I keep butting up against the jamming problem, I expect that I

WILL ……bend another indexing arm.

There DOES seem to be a little “gouging” in the brass end of the primer magazine (22032) where it mates against the shell plate as it spins under it.

ALSO on the Primer Feedbody housing (21279) where the two parts mate up.

I don’t know is this is significant or not, but My small primer disk IS scratched up a bit, It does not seem to be enough that is should be causing a problem.

I HAVE lubricated the sliding against eachothers surfaces ( with GREASE not OIL).

After a frustrating day:

( I managed to complete only a scant 120….. 9mm …..in SIX (6) hours of struggling with this problem), …………….I have been forced to “Sideline” my 650 (until I can get this problem resolved)

I am for the time being, going back to my RCBS PiggyBack II).

( I am seriously running out of Ammo ).

The problem is “somewhere” in the Small Primer Assembly (21605)

Would it be out of line to ask that Dillon send me a new (certified properly functioning one ) complete?

I would return my malfunctioning one and perhaps Dillon could figure out what is wrong, and tell me how to fix it.

??????????

[dfwmiket]

Call Dillon.

[glooooock]

renaissance7697

I have the same issues , my view is the shell-plate and primer disc's are indexed by the detent balls ( you cant change that ) . Your only adjustment is the degree of rotation , toward or past the detent index .

Dillon has a kit / alignment check pin( 13713 * BENCH - Alignment Fixture ). It verifies your adjustments at the index position , so all the plungers and discs -shell-plates are clocked to press the primer squarely into the case. Loosely tightened , dirty (powder dust ) , mis-adjusted rotation short or past the index point can all cause problems .

Basically if you case goes around the shell plate unprimed with powder or you see a pinched primer ( tear it apart an clean it ).

I love my 650XL ,, still a bit of a learning curve for me , as I lit off a whole tube of primers by pinching one primer after 300 rds of .40 ca ,,, that all went fine.

Like you I am back on my 8 year old L-N-L Hornady , till I sort out the 650 .

[Gavin Melville]

Hi,

I realise that this is not exactly the "missed" primer problem, but one of the 650s' I setup recently had exactly this problem, and in the end it was the bench -- twice. I added 3/16's steel plate about 3 feet square under the press to a bench that was kind of solid. Once I could see the primers turning up on edge (or starting to turn) I realised it still wasn't solid enough. The disk method of handling primers is very sensitive to vibration, and in the end we put a heavy steel foot from right under the press down to a concrete floor. That fixed it -- competely.

I suspect that the shape of the hole in the disk is part of the issue -- when the primers tip they don't recover and sit back down.

This might seem silly, but worth a try. Take the disk out, and clean it -- grease will make it worse. On a bench or similar place the disk on the flat surface. Put a primer in a hole, and slide the disk off the edge of the bench. Try it a few times and then try the disk up the other way. With all five of the disks I have had my hands on they drop clear one way, and tend to stick at an angle the other way as they pass across the edge (only works with a sharp edge). Put the disk back in the way up that worked better. Every part of the primer mechanism has to be spotlessly clean.

The problem seems to be a little worse with the strong mount -- I suspect due to greater leverage. While I had one 650 on my own bench I had 100lbs of lead placed just behind the press mount, and no strong mount. That bench wasn't great -- just a steel office desk, but mounted to a wall. The lead weight stopped the primer problems.

While I still recommend 650's to club members, I ask them to build a massive (rather than just strong) bench first.

[charliez]

Sounds more like an alignment problem to me. I had the same issue happen to me after I had to disasseble the main head of the 650 in an attempt to figure out how to change the primer punch LOL

Dillon sent me the alignment tool, it was very simple to do, and I've had no problems since.

[renaissance7697]

OK

Gloooooook got my attention with the key phrase:

Primer VOLCANO !

Thinking about those "Partially Sheared" primers.

They may be getting "pinched" in the initial drop position from the primer magazine.

This becomes a serious "Safety Issue"

Dillon please take note... ( I know you are lurking out there )

Tim Vaughn.....

How about a replacement/Loaner #21605

[dillon]

The 650 primer discs are manufactured by a process called "coining". We have inspected the tooling, checked the primer holes in the disc on each side; there is no difference in the hole dimension at either side of the disc.

However, we measured a variety of primers, and are finding that most brands of primers are not as concentric as they used to be. We will not divulge the specifics, but anyone with a micrometer can duplicate our efforts. We found a higher percentage of out-of-round primers on a per/hundred basis, and more primers with anvils seated higher than they used to be.

[renaissance7697]

Interesting..................

Are you suggesting then (Dillon) that it is a "Quality Components" problem

Rather than Equipment ??

Since you note ( with out revealing specifics) that it is a general ( over all component manufactures ) problem.... what do We as Dillon owners and users do ???

Risking "Primer Volcanoes " is not an option.

Even though Dillon proudly points out, that their Primer magazine design, "minimzes" the risk to life and limb in the case of one of those episodes.........

My continued participation in the "Reloading Activity" would be severely influenced by

"She who rules the House" in the event that the ceiling over our family recreation room, underwent major renovation. just above Where my 650 ....USED to Reside!

( MY.....Look at that "safety in mind designed Primer magazine " penetrating the acoustic tile of our "Family" (where my children kids play)....Rec Room ...into the tile on the Kitchen floor above, in the midst of all those (close to 100) "pock marks" in the area surrounding it ) ..... Never did find that plastic Primer follower...did we check the Attic?

Now if we could only get the Cat down out of that tree ......and some fresh skivies maybe

GOLF anyone ??

[ap3]

I struggle with m 650 primer system all the time. Sometime the plate gets burrs on it, sometimes the ball dent spring gets weak, sometime dirt cause primers to turn in the shellplate, sometime it gets out of alignment, sometimes etc..... I really like Dillon products, but I do not like the chronic problems of the 650 primer system. The primer system of my 550 was much more reliable.

Maybe one day when all three of mykids are out of college I can afford a 1050.

Until then I am just another frustrated 650 owner who is tired of spending his evenings working on his reloading press primer system.

[Rico567]

Given my recent struggle with a certain brand / size of primer, I might be inclined to credit that variations in primer dimension is at the root of this problem. However, I have experienced NO priming problems since I got my 650....none I can attribute to the 650, at any rate. The issue of the odd primer that seats, but is a bit "off" and ends up seated & shooting OK, but looking a bit shoved to one side in the primer pocket, is more a function of how much or how little radius exists on the primer pocket of various cases. Sellier & Bellot cases have primer pockets with a very pronounced "edge." I steer clear of these. Remington are the best, with a nicely radiused corner. Winchesters, which I mostly use, are- OK.

While my bench might be described as "massive," my mounting system is hardly that. The 650 strong mount is bolted to a piece of 3/4" plywood about 1" bigger than the dimensions of the strong mount back & sides, and flush in front. I clamp the board to my bench with two C-clamps. Works like a charm.

My final comment may prove a little frustrating, even to me, and that involves "feel" when it comes to progressive reloading. My now-departed Lee Pro1000s had a "feel," and this included the speed where they "liked" to run....probably 350-400 rounds per hour. My MEC shotgun reloader has a "feel," but it's not nearly as critical. The Dillon 650 also has a "feel," a certain rhythm. I think that the 650 performs best when the operator established a very consistent rhythm when operating it. This may require some concentration when first using the press, but once it is established, the press will run smoothly. I wish I could be more definite about this last item, but it's just a matter of....feel.

[BritinUSA]

Dillon has a kit / alignment check pin( 13713 * BENCH - Alignment Fixture ). It verifies your adjustments at the index position , so all the plungers and discs -shell-plates are clocked to press the primer squarely into the case. Loosely tightened , dirty (powder dust ) , mis-adjusted rotation short or past the index point can all cause problems .

Does anyone know if this part number has changed. I think I need one but I can't find it on Dillon's web-page or on BE's store.

[DanM]

Interesting timing that this thread comes back up. I recently moved into a new apartment and decided to move my 650 from my shop to a closet out on my balcony. I went from having a rock solid bench to building a shelf in that still leaves something to be desired. On the old bench, I never had a single lock-up but within 50 rnds on the new bench, I've locked the press up so tight I thought I might need a plasma cutter to get it loose This weekend I'm going to spend some time beefing up the bench and putting a 4x4 post directly under the press. I stongly suspect that at least in my case, the probelm is caused by too much vibration/movement in the bench.

[Nik Habicht]

Both my 650 and my 1050 improved markedly when they moved from the second floor of a wood frame house to the ground floor of a basement-less home built on a concrete slab. Nothing else has changed, but the bench has stronger support....

[ap3]

Did not wait on my kids to get out of college to get a 1050. Once the primer system is tuned in it runs 100% better than my 650 ever did, and the 1050 is in the exact location that the 650 was located. The ability to have primer pockets swaged before ever round loaded really adds to the reliabilty of primer loading not only in rifle but pistol as well.

If you have the money anddo a lot of shooting buy a 1050. IMHO