Air Travel With Firearms

[Carlos]

You wrote: "TSA must not allow unlocked bags containing guns to be loaded by handlers onto an aircraft!!  Because of the nature of the contents, the bag should be inspected with owner present. "

You summed it up perfectly.  Never mind that TSA is in violation of well-thought out FAA regs, this is a matter of common sense.  TSA is insisting on a policy whereby guns are made accessible by opening luggage in areas of the airport where the citizen is not allowed to go.  This exposes the gun to being taken on board an airplane by terrorists, being stolen in secure areas, being accessible to persons with access to the tarmac and therefore to planes, etc.  This new procedure makes hijacking MORE likely, not less so.  

Once our unlocked guns disappear behind closed TSA doors, we have a right to know:   Who is back there? TSA? Should we, the people, blindly trust TSA on this?

There is a small document called the Constitution penned specifically to protect citizens from our own government.  If that document still means anything, it means that we should not blindly trust TSA.  I will now be taking a firearm on EVERY flight and plan to confront them on this.

I am a loyal American; patriotism and the fight against terrorism are one thing. TSA stupidity is another.

[Jack Suber]

At our gun club meeting last night, we had a TSA "Agent" apply for membership in our club.  When he announced that he worked for TSA at our airport, he was immediately bombarded with questions.  In the limited time he had to speak, he explained that TSA is working to "iron-out" some inconsistencies in policy.  He said changes are being made daily.  Brief examples were: a traveller can now carry cigaret lighters, nail clippers (provided there is not a knife blade attached), and knitting needles aboard an airplane (knitting needles - if they are what I think they are, I think they would be more dangerous than a 2" pocket knife).  I invited him to our IPSC match next month and I plan to be contacting him frequently for information on TSA policy.  He seemed to be fairly intelligent, he is a shooter, so hopefully he can be a good source of info and guidance.  I will pass on any information that I get from him.  take care.

Jack

[Loves2Shoot]

Just a thought, but would it not be easier (less likely to lose a gun?) to travel without your gun, say UPS the thing to a FFL holder in the local club? I haven't traveled with a gun yet, but am toying with the idea of going to FL and shooting where it is warm, but am not looking forward to trying to get my blasters through security if I do. Is this something people do?

[ErikW]

Don't ship to a FFL because they'll have to log it in their bound book and then "transfer" it to you. (Which might not be possible out of state, due to fedlaw.)

You can ship it to yourself. Sort of.

[Loves2Shoot]

How do you ship it to yourself?

[kimel]

On the ATF website they have a FAQ with all sorts of info about shipping firearms.  If I interpretted it correctly last time I read it (a couple weeks ago) you can ship a firearm to yourself.  So, you ship it to yourself in care of your hotel.  Now, some hotels might get freaky about this so you might want to ask first.  I would at least want to know that they had a safe.  Or, ship it FedEx or one of the others with a guaranteed delivery time and just make sure you are at the hotel when it is delivered.

However, for major matches it shouldn't be a big deal for the match to accept and secure inbound packages for competitors.  Heck, a local MailBoxes Etc might even volunteer to do this if they get the outbound biz as well.

Check out the ATF website or call the local ATF office and ask them.  If I was travelling with firearms I know for sure I would want to look at this realllll seriously as opposed to hoping some cargo smasher doesn't swipe my blaster.

Cheers!

Kevin

[shred]

I just did a 'test flight' from to Seattle and back on American with a Glock 29 and 200 rounds of ammo.

On the way there, the agent said "oh, there's some new reg" and went and got a TSA agent. I did the unload-and-show-clear there at the check-in counter with him (it was not busy) and locked everything back up (zip-tie on outer bag, lock on inner one). Had a brief Taurus-compared-to-Glock conversation with the TSA guy as he hand-carried my bag over to the super-X-ray (which was in the check-in area) and ran it through.

On the way back, the counter agent went through the usual pre-Jan-1 "is it unloaded?, here, put this tag in" routine, then attached a red "Hey-TSA-There's-A-Gun-In-Here" tag to it and sent it back. Two minutes later I got paged to go back to the counter. There I got pulled in the back with the super-x-ray and a couple of TSA guys. They said "we need to look in this, the agent was wrong". I had to go stand in a little taped-off area out of reach of my bag as the guy whips out a Spyderco Police and cuts the zip-tie, opens it up and pokes around. When they were done, they put a new zip-tie on the outer bag zippers and sent it on. We had a "GSSF lewis prize system discussion" during the whole thing.

Not too bad an experience, but I did one thing that worked really well-- I replaced one of the wheelie-frame rivets on my outer bag with a 1/4-20 eyebolt with the eye on the inside. I then put the Glock 29 in an old-style Glock case with the hole in the center and locked the whole thing to the eyebolt with a long cable-lock.

That way, the gun case is locked, according to regs, and even if the outer bag is opened, somebody can't just run off with the gun or gun case. With a long enough cable, you can even unload-and-show-clear without even unlocking the thing.

I'm working on a similar mod for my race guns. You can swap out the bleeder valve on a Pelican case with a 1/4-20 eyebolt as well. Lock the guns in the case to that, and lock the case to the outer bag somehow, and it'll be about as secure as ever, even if some weasel cracks the locks holding the case or bag closed.

[TDean]

Sounds very similar to my experience Shred.

What worries me is when it gets busy, and your running behind schedule already.  The gun traveling community shouldn't be delayed any more than little old ladies with knitting needles in their luggage.

I don't think TSA needs to be involved in the "show-clear" procedure.  They aren't weapons experts, they are trained to read the images of x-ray machines.

"we need to look in this, the agent was wrong"

Isn't this what the x-ray machines are for?

Hell, why even x-ray bags if they're gonna open them all?  

Where does it say that they NEED to look in a case that contains a declared weapon, especially if the x-ray doesn't indicate any explosive compounds (which is the whole purpose of this new procedure anyway).

This comming shooting season, I'm expecting a lot of angry traveling gun owners.  

Where were you shooting in Seattle?

[shred]

Actually I didn't get to shoot at all in Seattle -- It was a business trip I dragged the Glock along on to experiment with the system before trying to take 2 race guns to Florida next month.  

Honestly the three TSA guys I interacted with seem much more firearms-knowledgeable than the typical gate agent (as I test I showed an empty magwell to one guy and said 'It's empty' and he made me work the slide)

I still don't know why they need to open all the gun bags-- doesn't make much sense to me either.

[Mistral404]

I just did a flight on Cont. and United.

The Cont was great.  Declared the firearm. Agent check for clear and unloaded. Lock the HARD SIDED CASE. Placed it in a softsided case.  The agent took the case back to have it search and came out to tell me it was ok.  It arrived safe and sound

United in New Orleans was totally different.

Delcared the weapon, showed clear and unload. Locked the hard case and put it in wheeled bag.  The agent attached a yellow band, I took the bag over to the xray machinces and chatted with the guy for a minute.  Asked to have a tie put on the bags.  

Arrived home, the bag with the gun had the tie removed, the other two bags had the tie in place.  Someone, somewhere decided to cut the tie and re-examine the bag or ?

I fly United alot.  They are inconsistent in their procedures.  BTW: they allow 11 pounds of ammo, not how many rounds.  United is still asking for ID at the gate while others are not.

I would suggest calling the airline.  They all treat the rules a little differently.

FedEx will not allow you to officially ship a declared firearm to yourself unless you have an FFL!!!!!!!!!!!

FedEx rules are that either the shipper or receiver must hold a FFL.

I have shipped a firearm by FedEx and not declared it.  At the time I did not know it was against their rules.  Subsequently I learned the hard way about their rules, luckily I had an FFL fax his copy to them while I was seated on an airplane.  But I have already told that story.

[IPSC CHIK1]

with the hodge-podge of implementation of rules/regulations for travelling with firearms since 9/11/01 i will now definately be DRIVING to all matches in the lower 48!

[mcginnes]

Shred, given your history of flying with firearms, I don't think you should anymore.

I flew from DC/BWI to Jacksonville, FL in Jan.

I had a hardside case with a handle on it, so I used a (Glock supplied) cable lock to lock the case to a loop inside the suitcase. I also put a cheapy luggage lock on the outside of the suit case. That lock was cut, but replaced with a cable tie. In the future, I will just cable tie the zippers on the luggage. Locking the gun case to the luggage is a big "DO."

Now for what they did:

On the way to Jax, the Southwest counter person insisted that one "firearm unloaded" tag go on the OUTSIDE of the suitcase, and that it not be locked. I didn't think that was right, so I asked for a supervisor. The supervisor said the same thing. When I got my bag in Jax, the lock was cut and placed in my luggage (with a note), the "unloaded firearm" tag was inside the case and the zippers were cable tied.

From Jax,

They had me place two "not loaded" tags in the firearms case (one for each gun). I told the supervisor about my experiance at BWI, and she took one of the old "not loaded" tags (with the BWI agents name and employee number on it) so she could report the problem (without my having to ask her to). After about 15 minutes, I got "the page." and went to a non-public area to open my bag. It turns out I had a couple of loose rounds in my shooting bag, oops. TSA had me put the loose rounds in a magazine! They then closed everything up, locked with cable ties and off I went.

Epiloge,

I'm sitting in BWI, waiting for my ride; and I'm a little apprehensive because I have two guns in my suitcase. All of the sudden this guy walks up, grabs my suitcase and starts to walk off with it.

I am 6'5", 280lbs and, at this point, highly aggitated. He's about 5'6" 125 and looked like a nice guy. I think he about crapped his pants. His visiting guests had pointed in my general direction and said, 'our suitcase is over there' and he just grabbed the wrong one. Some guy grabbing the suitcase with your guns in it will get your heart going though.

[shred]

I haven't had any more Glocks go AWOL to Tokyo without me lately..

Anyway, coming back from the Florida Open, Orlando does the carry-your-bags-to-x-ray-then-stand-outside-while-they-root-through-it deal.  They did re-lock bags when asked nicely.

FYI-  I'm really happy with the lock-the-guns-to-the-outer-baggage technique-- I made a 4-foot coated wire cable just for the job and it works well.

I also try to make my luggage a bit 'distinctive' to avoid people accidentally running off with it as above. Typically that means attaching trinkets to it like a kid owns it.  My latest batch of glow-in-the-dark spacemen (some with cool ray-guns) needs to be replaced though-- they're breaking off bit by bit.

Also note that American Airlines has gone to a 50-lb weight limit per bag (the other airlines are 70lbs)-- If you're over, you have to pay $25 or $50 or more each way. They didn't check in Austin, but they sure did in Orlando.  Time for a rude e-mail to the comment box..

[BigDave]

a tag onto Shred's post.  got this from a company email

"Some recent travel situations helped me realize there have been additional changes in baggage guidelines with commercial carriers.  Apparantly the changes went into affect in December:

  *  Most major airlines allow two checked bags per ticketed passenger

  *  Weight guidelines have been reduced from 75 lbs to 50 lbs at which point overweight baggage excess charges apply

        >  51 - 70 pounds        $25 charge

        >  over 70 pounds        $80"

FYI