Will Idpa Outlaw The Sig P220 Sao Like Ipsc?

[TnBama]

Does anyone have any inside info? I was very disappointed to see USPSA plan to restrict SSD to the 1911 pistol. I think it's a wrong headed move.

What about IDPA? Will they do the same thing in CDP?

Edited January 14, 2007 by TnBama

[JakeMartens]

It is not outlawed, it can only be shot in L-10 because of the single action trigger.

In IDPA it can only be used in CDP.

Not outlawed but only fits into specific division because of the single action trigger

[Clay1]

It is not outlawed, it can only be shot in L-10 because of the single action trigger.

In IDPA it can only be used in CDP.

Not outlawed but only fits into specific division because of the single action trigger

I don't shoot CDP or Single stack but isn't single stack Div a single action trigger division so how would the single action trigger restrict you from shooting SSD? I was thinking that it did not fit into the weight restrictions for the div.

Rick

Edited January 14, 2007 by Clay1

[RickB]

SSD is a 1911-only division.

CDP also allows any gun that is SSP-legal, as long as it is in .45 ACP. You can shoot any .45 that makes weight and fits in the box.

[TnBama]

It is not outlawed, it can only be shot in L-10 because of the single action trigger.

In IDPA it can only be used in CDP.

Not outlawed but only fits into specific division because of the single action trigger

I don't shoot CDP or Single stack but isn't single stack Div a single action trigger division so how would the single action trigger restrict you from shooting SSD? I was thinking that it did not fit into the weight restrictions for the div.

Rick

The P220 is light enough and fits on the box- but USPSA is planning to restrict SSD to only pistols based on the 1911 design of JM Browning. Just wondering if IDPA might do the same thing and outlaw the SigP220 for CDP. If they did, the Sig would not compete well in any other IDPA division due to it's 8-round capacity.

[Clay1]

The P220 is light enough and fits on the box- but USPSA is planning to restrict SSD to only pistols based on the 1911 design of JM Browning. Just wondering if IDPA might do the same thing and outlaw the SigP220 for CDP. If they did, the Sig would not compete well in any other IDPA division due to it's 8-round capacity.

This is cut and paste from the IDPA current rule book on CDP:

"4. Custom Defensive Pistol Division (CDP)

Handguns permitted for use in this division must:

A. Be semi-automatic.

B. Be .45 ACP caliber.

23

C. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 41 oz., including an

empty magazine.

D. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8”

with an empty magazine inserted.

E. Be loaded to the division capacity of eight (8) rounds in the

magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division

capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine

capacity, load should be to maximum mechanical capacity of

magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors

must use the same capacity magazines through out the

competition (Example: if you start with a 7 round magazine,

you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

High capacity pistols can be used as long as the pistol meets ALL

division criteria.

Pistols approved for SSP may also be used in ESP and CDP

depending upon caliber, even if the pistol in question has a fulllength

dust cover. However, should the pistol in question have a

modification that removes it from SSP, it must meet all other

division criteria for ESP or CDP, again depending upon caliber.

PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):

1. Sights to another notch and post type (see “sights” in

glossary for further information).

2. Grips (no weighted grips; see “weighted grips” in glossary

for further details).

3. Internal accuracy work (includes: replacement of the barrel

with one of factory configuration, the use of Accu-Rails, the

use of Briley Bushings).

4. Factory installed cone style barrels are permitted on pistols

with a barrel length of 4.2” or less.

5. Internal reliability work.

6. Checker frontstrap and backstrap.

7. Checker or square and checker trigger guard.

8. Cosmetic checkering/serrating.

24

9. Extended thumb (may be ambidextrous) and Beavertail grip

safeties.

10. Extended magazine release (button may not be oversize in

diameter or protrude more than .2” out from the frame).

11. Full length guide rod manufactured of material that is no

heavier than common steel.

12. Hammer and other trigger action parts to enhance trigger

pull (includes over travel stop).

13. Beveled magazine well and add-on well extensions.

14. Custom finishes.

EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):

1. Full length dust covers of carbon or stainless steel.

2. Oversize diameter magazine release buttons.

3. Trigger shoes.

4. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for

further information).

5. Refer to Appendix ONE-A. Firearms-Non-IDPA-Legal

Modifications."

This is also cut and paste from the rulebook: "Stability of Firearm Criteria Rule

This rule applies to firearms only; specifically any rule change

that would disallow a firearm previously approved for IDPA

competition. Firearm criteria changes will only be reviewed every

two (2) years. Any firearm criteria changes will go into effect

twelve (12) months after approval."

Hope that this helps,

Rick

Edited January 14, 2007 by Clay1

[rubberneck]

In IDPA it can only be used in CDP.

Or ESP.

[shadetree]

In IDPA it can only be used in CDP.

Or ESP.

So the cz TS would not be leagal because of it's full length dust cover?

[JakeMartens]

The CZ TS would only be legal in ESP because of the single action trigger and weight.

[Clay1]

This is cut and paste from page 21 of the rulebook:

"Pistols approved for SSP may also be used in ESP and CDP

depending upon caliber, even if the pistol in question has a fulllength

dust cover. However, should the pistol in question have a

modification that removes it from SSP, it must meet all other

division criteria for ESP or CDP, again depending upon caliber."

So if it doesn't meet the criteria for SSP it can't be used if it has a full length dust cover is right. I think the gun is single action and that will knock it out.

Rick

The CZ TS would only be legal in ESP because of the single action trigger and weight.

I won't be legal in ESP either because of the full length dust cover. This is cut and paste from excluded modifications to ESP on page 22 of the rulebook: "EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):

1. Full length dust covers of carbon or stainless steel."

Rick

[shadetree]

Bummer

[Derwoodski]

Does anyone have any inside info? I was very disappointed to see USPSA plan to restrict SSD to the 1911 pistol. I think it's a wrong headed move.

What about IDPA? Will they do the same thing in CDP?

In reading the 2005 rules It was originally restricted to 1911 pistols only, unless i'm reading it wrong

paste from uspsa pssd rules

Pistols:

1911 production type pistols only, no comps, barrel weights, barrel ports, optics, or any

kind of electronic sighting device.

Pistols in this provisional division must be available to the general public and have their

basis in the original 1911 service pistol. Pistols made from components that duplicate the

factory originals are also acceptable.

Pistols produced with attachment points for external lights or optics are not permitted.

No coned barrels or barrels with flanges will be allowed, except in 1911 compact pistols

with a barrel length of 4.2 inches or less.

Slides will be in factory configuration or within the specified list of allowed

modifications.

Frames shall be of steel or other metallic alloy, plastic frames are not allowed.

The pistol with empty magazine and any attached base pad, when inserted in the gun,

must fit in the standard IPSC box as presented in the current edition of the USPSA rule

book.

Magazines in this division must be of standard length, excluding base pads. No extended

magazines may be used. No modifications may be made to base pads to increase

magazine capacity.

Holsters, and magazine pouches.

Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification, all

retention features of the holster must be used. All holsters must fully cover the trigger

when the pistol is holstered. The front of the holster may be cut no lower than ¼ inch

below the ejection port.

Magazine pouches should be designed for continuous daily carry and should be

reasonably concealable.

Holsters and magazine pouches shall be worn in accordance with the diagram illustrated

in Appendix F3 in the current edition of the USPSA rulebook.

Rule 5.2.3.1 does not apply.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Derwoodski

[TnBama]

So, as of now, the Sig 220SAO can compete in CDP is the way I read that. Unless the barrel would be disqualified because it's 5" and doesn't use a bushing?

Does any one know if this pistol has ever been the subject of a ruling about being in CDP class??

Edited January 18, 2007 by TnBama

[Clay1]

So, as of now, the Sig 220SAO can compete in CDP is the way I read that. Unless the barrel would be disqualified because it's 5" and doesn't use a bushing?

Does any one know if this pistol has ever been the subject of a ruling about being in CDP class??

If the gun has a full length dust cover it can't shoot in CDP either. From Page 24 of the rule book under CDP Exclusions:

"EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):

1. Full length dust covers of carbon or stainless steel."

If it is single action and has a full length dust cover, it can't be used in any IDPA DIVISION. This stops many of the S_I guns from competing in IDPA matches.

Rick

[TnBama]

Okay-

Thanks Clay! I hadn't realized about the dust cover. That's a bummer.

[austinkroe]

I dont think the Sig has a long dust cover. The pictures on their website show a totally legal CDP gun. The guns doesnt need a bushing to be legal it just cant have a cone or bull barrel which I dont believe it does. Ernest Langdon won CDP at the nationals with a stock 220 a few years ago so I would say it is a legal gun. The only diference I see between the 220 and the 220SAO is the addition of a safety and removal of the double action mech. As I see it this only makes it more in the spirit of CDP. Call HQ and ask them about it. I say legal gun and will have to disagree with anyone that says otherwise.

[Clay1]

If the gun has a full length dust cover it can't shoot in CDP either. From Page 24 of the rule book under CDP Exclusions:

"EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):

1. Full length dust covers of carbon or stainless steel."

If it is single action and has a full length dust cover, it can't be used in any IDPA DIVISION. This stops many of the S_I guns from competing in IDPA matches.

Rick

Note, from my previous post I said "IF" it has a long dust cover and is single action there isn't a division that it would be legal in.

Rick

[austinkroe]

Note, from my previous post I said "IF" it has a long dust cover and is single action there isn't a division that it would be legal in.

Rick

My bad, I skimmed your post and didnt see the IF. I apologise.

[Clay1]

My bad, I skimmed your post and didnt see the IF. I apologise.

It happens to the very best of us when we skim a thread too fast.

If you really want an answer call IDPA up: (870) 545-3886. If you send them an email you might never get an answer

Rick

[TnBama]

Thanks Everybody! I'm gonna call them- I'll let you know what I find out.

[TnBama]

Okay- I called. The P220 is legal in CDP and there are no discussions to restrict CDP to 1911 style pistols. The person I spoke with even said a glock could be shot in CDP- although I still don't understand that one.

[Clay1]

Okay- I called. The P220 is legal in CDP and there are no discussions to restrict CDP to 1911 style pistols. The person I spoke with even said a glock could be shot in CDP- although I still don't understand that one.

Read post number 10 again in this thread.

Rick

[TnBama]

Okay- I called. The P220 is legal in CDP and there are no discussions to restrict CDP to 1911 style pistols. The person I spoke with even said a glock could be shot in CDP- although I still don't understand that one.

Read post number 10 again in this thread.

Rick

I just don't understand why they set it up the way they have.

[revchuck]

Okay- I called. The P220 is legal in CDP and there are no discussions to restrict CDP to 1911 style pistols. The person I spoke with even said a glock could be shot in CDP- although I still don't understand that one.

Basically, if it's a .45 ACP bottomfeeder and it fits in the box and makes weight, it can be shot in CDP.

[Clay1]

Okay- I called. The P220 is legal in CDP and there are no discussions to restrict CDP to 1911 style pistols. The person I spoke with even said a glock could be shot in CDP- although I still don't understand that one.

Basically, if it's a .45 ACP bottomfeeder and it fits in the box and makes weight, it can be shot in CDP.

That is one of the things that is nice about IDPA is that it is not gun specific. In other words more than 1911 can play.

Rick